coptichymns.net - Sharing the Joy of Coptic Hymns Around the World

mikehenry

posted on Nov 08, 2011 - 03:42 AM

Hey Everyone,

I was randomly wasting time browsing the Internet and came across the following:

http://magazine.nd.edu/news/17949-a-mus ... t-on-film/

Apparently, a professor at ND is producing a documentary on the transfer and heritage of Coptic hymns. From my understanding, there is also an event this week at Yale where she will be discussing the draft so far:

http://www.yale.edu/ism/events/WindowEast2.html

Just thought you'd all like to know.

God bless,
Mike

Remember me in your prayers!

Joined: Jan 20, 2006 | Posts: 158
Location: St. Mark Coptic Orthodox Church, Boston

asinner

posted on Nov 08, 2011 - 06:37 AM

I hate how the first paragraph talks about how they are tech-savvy, and always have a five camera shoot for every liturgy. Instead of speaking only about the euty of the church, she was distracted by the cameras and all that. I hate technology in church. I cannot stand seeing computers instead of books, cameras and all that. I find it distracted. Just letting loose.

Asinner

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geomekhaiel

posted on Nov 08, 2011 - 09:30 PM

asinner,

I used feel like I would get hung up on the tech stuff at church too... Now I think that it's better to not get hung up on the details of things and try to just focus on prayer. Yes, cameras, computers and all other electronics in church can be districting...but you have to just get over that. You will waste energy fighting with yourself on how distracting the electronics are instead of putting that energy towards where it is supposed go go...prayer!

I feel like the fathers knew how distracting the liturgy would one day be....that's why the priest says, "shleel" every two minutes in order to call the people back to prayer lol jk

"Just Shleel" lol

How many cameras, tv's, projectors, etc. do you see when you close your eyes and pray? NONE! haha

George Mekhaiel

Joined: Aug 05, 2003 | Posts: 1768
Location: Saint George COC

mikehenry

posted on Nov 09, 2011 - 04:45 AM

Asinner,

I think I agree with you. What gets me is not that it's distracting (even though it actually is. The deacon who is in charge of, for example, changing the screen for the congregation cannot focus on praying, but has to keep up with the PowerPoint presentation of the liturgy. Not to mention, if he makes a mistake or is too slow, people usually get annoyed and start 'tsk'-ing at him), but it generally, in my opinion, ruins the "feel" of the church.

Part of the beauty of Orthodox Christianity, aside from its inherent richness in theology and beliefs, hymnography, and cultural tradition, is it's ancientness. Especially in modern times, where we have become so attached to technology, I think we need the Church to be, in a sense, some sort of haven of simplicity and rootedness.

Yes, it's not bad or even difficult to just ignore the amount of technology in our churches, to forget the projector, the screen, the microphones, the cameras, the computers, the iPad euchologia and iPod horologia, etc. They don't have to be distracting, like George said. But apart from being distracting, they detract from the spirit of the church. Moreover, they make the liturgical experience less personal for the believer: it's much more personal, in my view, if you have your own books, which you can write in or take notes in, rather than looking at a general screen without engaging any more senses than sight.

Sure, you can say the same about books or electricity or other technologies that the Church has absorbed into her physical worship, but I don't think it's the same. Books were in use before (or during the time in which) the Church emerged, and electricity is generally a necessary utility--at least in North America, where it can get cold in winter time. But how necessary are projectors and screens with the liturgy?

I guess it's debatable.

I've written more than I intended to. Forgive me. We should probably move this to another thread, too.

Mike

Joined: Jan 20, 2006 | Posts: 158
Location: St. Mark Coptic Orthodox Church, Boston

mikehenry

posted on Nov 09, 2011 - 04:46 AM

By the way, I feel kind of uncomfortable calling you "asinner"... Can I just call you Ray?

Mike

Joined: Jan 20, 2006 | Posts: 158
Location: St. Mark Coptic Orthodox Church, Boston

geomekhaiel

posted on Nov 09, 2011 - 06:59 AM

Mike!

I agree with you but I have given up on on this whole thing a long time ago. It's easier to just big "the bigger person" and just let things go on this issue. I think it's better to pick our Orthodox battles.

In the end of the day those who want to focus will focus and those who want to be distracted will be distracted. If they are not distracted by the projector then they will be distracted by some other random thought.

George

Joined: Aug 05, 2003 | Posts: 1768
Location: Saint George COC

mikehenry

posted on Nov 09, 2011 - 07:52 AM

George,

What ever happened to "Fight to the death for truth, and the Lord God will fight for you" (Sirach 4:28, NRSV)?

You are right--those who want to focus will find a way to focus, and those who do not want to will not care to. But I do think it's more than that: I want to preserve the simplicity and the other-worldliness of my Orthodox Church.

It's not a matter of focusing in the liturgy (with or without technology, I must admit that I find it hard to focus anyway, and that is a weakness on my part). It's a matter of taste, I suppose, or of what is the proper atmosphere for a church.

Ultimately, you probably are right. This case is probably not worth arguing since we have already smothered ourselves with technology in church and no one is looking to change that any time soon.

Oh, the woes of modernity.

Mike

Joined: Jan 20, 2006 | Posts: 158
Location: St. Mark Coptic Orthodox Church, Boston

asinner

posted on Nov 09, 2011 - 08:11 AM

Hey Guys,
Mike, Ray is just fine lol. First name basis!

I agree with both of you. Its just a pet peeve of mine, but like George said, How many cameras can you see with your eyes closed. Its just annoying, but ill have to get over it. I hope that technology just blows up and we go back to books.

Like Mike said, it detracts from the spirit. We have icons in a traditional way, candles in a traditional way, incense in a traditional way, beards in a traditional way, tunics, hymns, cymbals, crosses, lanters, all in a traditional way. Then you have some computer. It just kills the "mood."

Regardless, we are in too deep to change anything now. Lets start an anti-technology group, and overthrow tech people lol..

Pray for me,
-Asinner

Joined: Sep 14, 2004 | Posts: 314
Location: mrs.sauga

SherryMikhail

posted on Nov 09, 2011 - 08:19 AM

From asinner:I hope that technology just blows up and we go back to books.

From asinner:Regardless, we are in too deep to change anything now. Lets start an anti-technology group, and overthrow tech people lol..

I agree! I hate screens mostly because of the way they are used.

Please pray for me

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"Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth" - Ec 12:1

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mikehenry

posted on Nov 09, 2011 - 08:41 AM

I wonder how many people actually WANT technology in church.

I have to say before we continue this discussion that I'm being a complete hypocrite right now, since I'm a computer science and theology double-major. lol

Also, regarding "beards in a traditional way"--I like the way you think.

Mike

Joined: Jan 20, 2006 | Posts: 158
Location: St. Mark Coptic Orthodox Church, Boston

asinner

posted on Nov 09, 2011 - 08:45 AM

lol, what do you mean by you like the way i think?

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mikehenry

posted on Nov 09, 2011 - 08:47 AM

I just thought it was a funny comment lol.

Joined: Jan 20, 2006 | Posts: 158
Location: St. Mark Coptic Orthodox Church, Boston

mikehenry

posted on Nov 09, 2011 - 08:48 AM

And a very true comment, at that.

Joined: Jan 20, 2006 | Posts: 158
Location: St. Mark Coptic Orthodox Church, Boston

mikhail90

posted on Nov 09, 2011 - 08:50 AM

Technology used in a GOOD way, in an efficient way, in a non-distracting way...is GOOD for the Church.

There's a good way and a bad way for technology to be used in and outside the Church...

And there is definitely space for it to be used in the Church and especially for the future generations that are growing up around super-fast changing technology....!

There are things I hate about technology in the Church, but once again, I'll say... I believe in the GOOD, efficient, effective way to use it...

Joined: Jun 07, 2004 | Posts: 671
Location: Sydney, Australia.

asinner

posted on Nov 09, 2011 - 09:20 AM

mikhail90,
Its not a matter of good, bad, right, wrong. Its just annoying, and unnecessary. It kills the mood. Not everything that can be used for good should be used.
The church doesn't need to conform to technology. I like the church to transcend current culture. I want it to be haven away from anything the world is. I want heaven on earth, not some adaption of heaven with earth being used well in there. It is out of place.
Why don't we then put some oil into the offering? It tastes good, and all the other churches use it? Answer: We do things our way (of course there are real reasons but you know what i mean.) If some deacons don't know hymns, why can't we play a recording of a hymn in the microphone so that the congregation couls sing along. Wouldn't that produce a good result, getting the congregation to pray? I doubt you would like that idea.

It is just not its place. There may not be any biblical, patristic reasons as to why not, but it is just annoying. I like the mysticism in our services. Technology kills that in a drastic way. The orthodox church as a mystic church is being destroyed by technology.

Asinner

Joined: Sep 14, 2004 | Posts: 314
Location: mrs.sauga

mikehenry

posted on Nov 09, 2011 - 03:13 PM

mikhail90,

You said: And there is definitely space for it to be used in the Church and especially for the future generations that are growing up around super-fast changing technology....!

With all due respect, isn't that a problem? The fact that technology is "super-fast changing" should be one reason why we SHOULDN'T include so much of it in our services. Not only would that mean we would constantly be updating the Church every time a new piece of technology comes out, but it also seems to me as if the Church would be catering to the world's desires/wishes, rather than the people submitting to the rootedness of the Church.

Not to mention, correct me if I'm wrong, but there have been numerous studies that have shown how our brains are changing (for the worse) because of such technological advances. Perhaps by not having them in church, we could return to our natural neurological configurations.

I definitely agree that technology can be used efficiently in Church, but does that mean it ought to be? What is the good it provides to the Church that pre-21st century technology-smothered churches didn't have?

Personally, I think that the good things that technology provides must outweigh the negative effect it has on the spirit and simplicity and rootedness of church.

Forgive me,
Mike

Joined: Jan 20, 2006 | Posts: 158
Location: St. Mark Coptic Orthodox Church, Boston

mikehenry

posted on Nov 09, 2011 - 03:17 PM

Some comic relief while we're on the topic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1etQoH4hOM

Joined: Jan 20, 2006 | Posts: 158
Location: St. Mark Coptic Orthodox Church, Boston

Ramez Mikhail

posted on Nov 09, 2011 - 06:11 PM

Hello,

I may be wrong, but I am sensing in this discussion a significant amount of separatism or even hatred of the world. I mean comments such as "the Church is other-worldly" or "The Church should not be anything the world is". I am totally paraphrasing here, and do not mean to quote anyone in particular, so forgive me. But I do see a big problem with this attitude.

Let's agree first of all that there is nothing inherently bad or evil about "the world" as such. It is true that we say in liturgy "do not love the world or the things in the world", but what the Church means by this is the lusts of the world, our own broken an fallen use of matter that distorts it, perverts it, and turns it into a vehicle for satisfying our transitory desires and lusts, instead of using it properly as a means to offer thanks to God among other things. The idea that the Church is meant to be an exclusively separatist, other-worldly community, whose main purpose of existence is to be antithetical to the world is a highly misguided understanding of the Church's purpose. It reminds me more of ancient Dualism and Manichaeism, which has re-appeared in the Middle Ages and until now in Western spirituality, but is definitely not the Orthodox ecclesiology that the Fathers fought for in the early centuries.

Sorry for the boring details that seem irrelevant to the discussion. I think we can all agree also that the Church's ultimate purpose is actually the salvation of the world, not salvation fromthe world. This is a very critical distinction, because ultimately God did not create a world inherently destined for destruction, or just as a place for us to exist and be snatched from so to speak in order to be saved. Our job therefore is not to reject the world that God Himself considered "very good", but to realize that, as it stands now, the world is fallen and in need of significant repair. This repair is your job and mine, as human beings, created in God's image, and given the responsibility to "till the ground" (Genesis 2:5). Instead of segregating ourselves within Church walls, content in self-righteousness that we are not of this world, we must re-assume our proper roles within the world, and re-adjust our relationship to the world, offering everything in it as a thank-offering to God.

Ok so how is this related? I am not necessarily saying technology is good or bad. In fact, I serve in a small church where we don't have screens, projectors, iPads, or any of the technology mentioned, mostly because we don't need them in such a small place. The absence of such media, forces some of us to walk around showing others the page, an act of love and communion that I don't see quite as apparent in other churches. So, I am not trying to argue for or against screens per se. However, we have to know when our adopted reasons against technology betray a misguided understanding of the Church's position in the world, a misguided understanding of Orthodox Ecclesiology itself, the raison d'etre of our assembly, so to speak.

In other words, we are all free to see pros and cons for the use of technology in our churches. I know for a fact that these pros and cons will vary depending on the parish in question, and also on how technology is being implemented...sometimes things are done tastefully, and other times they are not. But a rejection of technology simply on the basis of "rejecting the world", or because it destroys the ancient mood, is in my opinion an unacceptable and misguided attachment to blind tradition.

Joined: Sep 15, 2002 | Posts: 1838

mikehenry

posted on Nov 09, 2011 - 09:13 PM

Hey Ramez,

You bring up a very good point. I admit that I have a tendency to think in that way regarding the church's relationship to the world, but I'm quite sure it's not the case:

To sum up all in one word— what the soul is in the body, Christians are in the world. The soul is dispersed through all the members of the body, and Christians are scattered through all the cities of the world. The soul dwells in the body, yet is not of the body; and Christians dwell in the world, yet are not of the world. The invisible soul is guarded by the visible body, and Christians are known indeed to be in the world, but their godliness remains invisible. The flesh hates the soul, and wars against it (1 Peter 2:11), though itself suffering no injury, because it is prevented from enjoying pleasures; the world also hates the Christians, though in nowise injured, because they abjure pleasures. The soul loves the flesh that hates it, and [loves also] the members; Christians likewise love those that hate them. The soul is imprisoned in the body, yet preserves that very body; and Christians are confined in the world as in a prison, and yet they are the preservers of the world. The immortal soul dwells in a mortal tabernacle; and Christians dwell as sojourners in corruptible [bodies], looking for an incorruptible dwelling in the heavens. The soul, when but ill-provided with food and drink, becomes better; in like manner, the Christians, though subjected day by day to punishment, increase the more in number. God has assigned them this illustrious position, which it were unlawful for them to forsake. (From the Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetes, ch. 6)

So you are definitely right. But the reason I'm advocating for a de-teching in church is not because the church is "against" the world or is in some way antithetical to the world, or because "things of the world" shouldn't be "infiltrating" the church. I'm rather arguing because of the effect technology has on the sense that the church gives to both those who are in it and those who are outside (case in point: the documentary producer's first impression is about how much technology is in the church). When I said "otherworldly", I did not mean to imply non-worldly or somehow anti-world. I meant BEYOND the world--that is the sense we should have when we enter Church (hence, we pray "whenever we stand in your holy sanctuary, we are considered standing in heaven"). Can we agree that the Church is to be beyond the world? To me, it seems that technology has the potential to inhibit the church from maintaining that ethos.

To say that my preference for an "ancient mood" is "an unacceptable and misguided attachment to blind tradition" is unfair. I am not against having technology in church because it somehow offends or is against Orthodoxy, or is in some way heretical. I'm not blindly following tradition: if I were, I would not have explained my opinion as thoroughly as I thought I did (if you think I am not being precise, please let me know). I am not saying that technology is not a threat to church, or something worldly we should avoid. Rather, I'm advocating for a specific ethos that I feel the church should maintain. Is that blindly following tradition?

Mike

Joined: Jan 20, 2006 | Posts: 158
Location: St. Mark Coptic Orthodox Church, Boston

Ramez Mikhail

posted on Nov 09, 2011 - 10:32 PM

Hi Mike,

Thanks for understanding what I meant. Let's see where we agree and where we differ.

Can we agree that the Church is to be beyond the world? Yes, definitely, hence the prayer you mentioned and countless others, as well as our theology of icons, and so on. But beyond the world in what way? And what do we mean by "the world"? I disagree that technology, strictly speaking, is what is meant here. I feel we have to dig much deeper than that. To me, the most prominent aspect of the Church's "metaphysicality" in the literal sense is that She binds and unites all as the body of Christ, the Ekklesia, the new people of Israel, whereas the world is all about fragmenting, separating, segregating. We are segregated in every way in the world, by time zones, space, backgrounds, life's responsibilities, misunderstandings, and ultimately sin, while the Church transcends all these circumstances that have become the defining characteristics of a fallen world. Another huge point, as I mentioned before, is the Church as the Sacrament of Offering, transforming our very relationship and use of nature from lustful consumerism to Eucharistic offering to God. I know these are not mutually exclusive aspects of our Church, but I feel that when we keep these truly transcendent issues in mind, technology as such pales in comparison.

I am sorry if I implied that you thought technology was "heretical", I know that is not what you meant and you have no strictly doctrinal opposition to technology. Believe me, I think I know the feeling you convey in your posts. We all love our church, and until recently the only "technology" we used were microphones, speakers, and occasionally TV screens in adjacent rooms. The gradual encroachment of projectors, screens, laptops and ipads have left our churches looking more like offices or lecture halls than the heaven on earth we are used to. I get it. These may be very valid reasons to avoid certain technological applications in certain contexts, but we should be careful from dogmatizing our opinions, or from assuming our experience and preferences would be true and edifying for every congregation anywhere. We should also be careful not to base our argument on a wrong understanding of the Church and the world (which you already agreed with me on), or on the basis that "this is not traditional". The Church is alive and the Holy Spirit is alive yesterday, today, and tomorrow, so there is always room for new things that edify and fit, as long as they don't contradict our Ecclesiology and are done in the right spirit.

I personally think the biggest problem with this trend is that it institutionalizes and condones the weakness of not memorizing the prayers and making them one's own expressions of their relationship with God. When we only had books, they were individual aids for specific people if they happen to not know the prayers (visitors, catechumens, inquirers, and those of us who have not yet memorized the liturgy). Now, there is a big screen, the most visually over-bearing sight in the church, almost forcing you to look at it, rather than at icons or the altar themselves. It is implicitly saying "don't bother memorizing prayers...just look up and there they are". But again, I would be careful not to discount the possibility that it may be needed for some, at various stages of maturity in the faith, and that depending on the demographics of a particular parish and their situation, it might be too harsh to subject them to a rigorous anti-technology for the sake of an ethos they may not even understand except gradually and after years.

Joined: Sep 15, 2002 | Posts: 1838

Ramez Mikhail

posted on Nov 09, 2011 - 10:33 PM

Btw, if you don't mind me asking, where are you studying Theology?

Joined: Sep 15, 2002 | Posts: 1838

asinner

posted on Nov 09, 2011 - 10:57 PM

You two are legends. I would put my input in, but, "Hay rooh fen elsa3look west el molook?"

Asinner

Joined: Sep 14, 2004 | Posts: 314
Location: mrs.sauga

mikehenry

posted on Nov 10, 2011 - 03:24 AM

Hi Ramez,

Thank you for likewise understanding me.

After reading and re-reading your post, I've come to agree with a lot of what you say, namely that this discussion needs to be more nuanced than how I've been thinking about it (which is, if I understand you correctly, what you meant by "we have to dig much deeper than that").

I don't think that technology is synonymous with "world", although that is what I might have seemed to be saying in my posts. So I agree with you there. And, of course, the issue of technology becomes a clear nonissue when we understand what the Church is and what her proper relationship to the world is. I don't think that incorporating technology into church services will in any way affect something as deep as that, and I hope I did not give that impression.

These may be very valid reasons to avoid certain technological applications in certain contexts, but we should be careful from dogmatizing our opinions, or from assuming our experience and preferences would be true and edifying for every congregation anywhere.

You are right; forgive me, because I did somewhat presume that everyone feels the same way. But if we see that technology has become so widespread and that it has the potential to create problems in our Liturgies and other services, what should be done?

I'm just as concerned as you are about the tendency of many to depend on technology without internalizing or personalizing their experience of worship (I mentioned this above in another post: even if they don't memorize the prayers, having their own books, and, as you alluded to earlier, sharing their books with others still allow for such a personal attitude, unlike the presence of such a huge screen). And I admit that we ought to accommodate to those who might not appreciate a simpler Church atmosphere. Yet how does one draw the line between accommodating for those who would benefit from technology and enabling those who take advantage of it? How much more would they benefit with it than without it? Or what about those of us who actually don't want such an abundance of technology in church? Is the ethos that I think the Church should maintain something worth sacrificing for the sake of the potential benefits of technology?

I'm of the opinion that because technologies such as projectors, screens, etc. have the potential to (a) detract from the "spirit" of the church environment (this is a more symbolic reason, I suppose), (b) distract believers who want to pray simply, (c) give an excuse not to focus to those who don't want to; and because it is not absolutely necessary (i.e. we got along fine with individual and shared books instead--and we may have gotten along even better), technology should be used sparingly in church, if at all. Like you said, it depends on the specific circumstances of the congregation, but I can't imagine the benefits it provides over not having it, other than perhaps convenience.

What do you think?

Mike

PS: Ray, I am not a legend. I just like to use big words and varied sentence structure and then intersperse that with proof-texts from Church Fathers so people think I'm smart.

Joined: Jan 20, 2006 | Posts: 158
Location: St. Mark Coptic Orthodox Church, Boston

Ramez Mikhail

posted on Nov 11, 2011 - 01:23 AM

Hi Mike,

I will admit from the very start that I have no firm, monolithic response to the points you made. I don't necessarily view this as an argument of two opposite opinions, but more like a true discussion with no firm position on my part at least. The only firm opinion I have, and which I already expressed, is a caution against understanding the Church as "anti-world" rather than "beyond the world", which I think we both have come to agree on and is no longer an issue.

Rather than delve into details and hypotheticals, all I can say is this: Once a local parish has acquired a correct ecclesiology, that is, an ecclesiology that does not deny the possibility of a holy use of whatever the world around us has created, an ecclesiology that does not understand the Church as merely a place of negation (rejecting everything outside its walls), then I think that community would have acquired all the necessary tools that enable it to make decisions like these as it sees fit. In other words, I can't really sit here and type up a one size fits all formula for how our entire Church should deal with technology.

To return to your question above about the possible benefit of screens, I can definitely see many people appreciating the ability to quickly follow along. It is not that they don't appreciate "a simple atmosphere", but just that up until a particular stage in their growth, it may be needed. Think of it as an educational tool, or training wheels. I have no problem, in principle, with the Church accommodating its least familiar members, or those who may become members but would be turned off otherwise if we fail to reach out to them. I will however also say that I don't think it's too much to ask to become familiar with service books and gaining the confidence to navigate them.

In summary, visual aids of this sort could be very helpful and appreciated by some, and the decision to implement them should always be on a case by case basis, decided by consensus of the congregation, a consensus that is reached in love and understanding of the needs of all the parish members. The larger the congregation, the more varied the preferences and feelings of its members, and it is inevitable that those of a more rigorous mindset will have to sacrifice on a few fronts for the general edification of the entire group. That I think why our hierarchy and bishops, to my knowledge, have rarely issued overarching decisions about this, though they themselves come from monastic, rigorous, simple backgrounds.

Joined: Sep 15, 2002 | Posts: 1838

mikehenry

posted on Nov 11, 2011 - 03:16 AM

Hi Ramez,

I think you are right. It's better to leave it to each individual parish. I've even benefited myself from technology in church, so I can't say it's useless, although I still think the less it's there, the better. Alas: I will just have to get over it for the sake of those who would benefit--not too bad.

Anyway, I still want to see that documentary.

Mike

Joined: Jan 20, 2006 | Posts: 158
Location: St. Mark Coptic Orthodox Church, Boston