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the_youngest

posted on Oct 24, 2011 - 01:46 AM

Hey Everyone,

There seems to be some confusion over when to say I believe and when to say we believe in the Divine Liturgy due to an inconsistency in different Liturgy Books.

I want to know what is right from legitimate sources and also the reasons / spirituality behind it so we can settle this issue in our church.

Thanks in advance

_________________
for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you. (Matthew 10:20)

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geomekhaiel

posted on Oct 24, 2011 - 02:25 AM

Tinahti = I believe
Tennahti = We believe

It's that simple!

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Location: Saint George COC

the_youngest

posted on Oct 25, 2011 - 01:56 AM

LOL... let me put it this way, if someone tells you "why say I believe, aren't we all one (and this is the liturgy of the believers) we should say we believe"

how do you refute that?

plus I'm sure the fathers didn't flip a coin to see whether they should write I believe in some parts and we believe in others. I'm sure there are very significant reasons.

Joined: Mar 14, 2008 | Posts: 116

ophadeece

posted on Oct 25, 2011 - 02:15 PM

Dear the_youngest,
My understanding is that "I believe" is mixed with "we believe" is to portray the aspects of individual faith, as well as the collective faith. Both are needed. However, why is each used in their particular places, I don't know. I hope that someone else can give us a better idea...
Oujai qen `P[C

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Location: Newcastle, UK

Ramez Mikhail

posted on Oct 26, 2011 - 12:46 AM

Interesting question...

Though I don't have a ready-made answer for you, I will mention that the Greek version of the Creed(and I suspect maybe also in other ancient languages) is "I believe", not "we believe".

One can see the rationale for either approach generally speaking regarding liturgical responses. We can justify "I believe" that the Church speaks as one, and that also a profession of Faith is a personal thing on some level, and everyone is responsible for his or her own faith. We can also justify "We believe" again as the Church speaking together, made up of many members. The Creed however occupies a special place in this debate, because it should really be recited exactly as it was formulated in Nicaea and re-affirmed in Constantinople.

What I feel more certain about is that our texts should not vacillate between I believe and we believe. Belief is belief. In fact, the belief we affirm in the Creed is no different from other instances in the liturgy, so they should all match and follow a consistent ecclesiology.

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Biboboy

posted on Oct 26, 2011 - 07:50 AM

Agape,

It's actually really simple to explain why both "We believe" and "I believe" are used in the Divine Liturgy - the reason is the timing and content of what we as a Believers in the Liturgy of the Faithful accepted, and what we as individuals need to believe.

We say "we believe" in the parts that are explaining historical events in Liturgy, such as in the institution narrative. Everyone gathered at that time (the Faithful, not the Catechumens or non-Christians) accepted the historicity of this event based on the Gospel that has been accepted in baptism.

We say "I believe" in the parts that you are responsible to believe, and they are the non-historical events, but the events that would happen at the present moment, particularly the Epiclesis. This isn't something preached to the church community as the Gospel has once been preached to them and the institution narrative explains to them once again, but it's a mystery that each individual has to affirm individually.

In fact, no one would argue in the church that Christ did not take bread and broke it and gave it to his holy disciples during the Last Supper. If we're all in Church for the Divine Liturgy, we all believe that happened. However, if you as an individual who is present for some reason did not believe that the bread and wine on the altar at the moment of the Epiclesis became the true Body and Blood of Christ, you are responsible for that belief by yourself. For you, when you approach communion, it would be merely bread and wine; whereas for someone else who affirmed his/her belief that this is truly the Body and Blood of Christ, then they actually partake of the communion of the Body and Blood of Christ!

That's basically the rationale for the different responses.

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ophadeece

posted on Oct 28, 2011 - 10:01 PM

So Biboboy the part starting with afshisarex is historical or faith-related? What about the part where we kneel and abouna says He makes this into HIs Holy Body... and later when he says beswma etowab?..
Oujai

Joined: Oct 01, 2007 | Posts: 289
Location: Newcastle, UK

the_youngest

posted on Dec 21, 2011 - 02:48 AM

Bishoy, what you said makes sense for everything except this part:

"was incarnate and became man[...] He descended into hades through the cross."

and then we say "Amen I believe"

I think that's the afshisarex part ophadeece is referring to. Is there a different reason why we say I believe here?

Also, if anyone can point me to any sources concerning this, it would be much appreciated.

Thanks, and sorry for the late reply, just finished exams

Joined: Mar 14, 2008 | Posts: 116

Overgrownegyptian

posted on Dec 29, 2011 - 07:25 PM

From the_youngest:Bishoy, what you said makes sense for everything except this part:

"was incarnate and became man[...] He descended into hades through the cross."

and then we say "Amen I believe"

I think that's the afshisarex part ophadeece is referring to. Is there a different reason why we say I believe here?

Also, if anyone can point me to any sources concerning this, it would be much appreciated.

Thanks, and sorry for the late reply, just finished exams

we should be saying "I believe" since it is an affirmation that "I, overgrownegyptian, believe indeed what is being said/what is taking place" not "we believe" so the deacon says it on behalf of the congregation.

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mourad

posted on Jan 05, 2012 - 10:39 PM

The affirmation that Christ is always and dynamically of two natures (for that is what we do when we say "Amen' and 'Amen,I believe" when Abouna says: "[he]...who of the Holy Spirit and of The Holy Virgin Mary...") is directly related to the nature of your faith of what the Bread and Wine actually is, i.e.: The Body and Blood of The God-Man Jesus Christ.

In fact, you'll see that a lot of the arguments St.Cyril used against the heterodox was based on the fact that their exposition of the faith regarding the incarnation and Who, in fact, was the subject of the Crucifixion hindered a proper faith in what the Eucharist actually is.


Merry Christmas!
Mourad

Joined: Nov 14, 2003 | Posts: 312
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