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tonyhabibi

posted on Oct 10, 2011 - 05:27 AM

usually when muslims bomb a church or do a drive by ... i sympathize with the victims .... but these recent killings i have a lack of sympathy ,,,,, and i want someone to tell me if i am wrong so i can adjust my attitude toward all this.

1) the protestors are mad because they destroyed a church in aswan . ok , there are a billion other churches in egypt . destroying a church is not the end of the world . because another church can be rebuilt , and u can attend another church nearby .

2) the copts took to the streets and rioted, and got shot at , and 24 ppl died. okay . if u put urself in harms way , what ever happens to you is your business .

3) they should have expected the egyptian military are trigger happy for they shot on their fellow muslims during the mubarak riots.

i am failing to sympathize with the egyptians in all this.

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mikokiko

posted on Oct 10, 2011 - 10:41 AM

Are you serious dude? That's offensive...

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tonyhabibi

posted on Oct 10, 2011 - 11:55 AM

of course i think killing innocent human life is wrong . but im considering the context of it all . im trying to intellectualize the problem .. thats the whole point of a debate.


of course i think the egyptian military should not have shot at the protestors , of course , but when one considers the history of the copts in egypt , r u that surprised with this situation ?

again , i feel all this bloodshed could of been avoided if the copts in aswan did not rebel against the demolition of their church , because so far the fruits of their efforts are as follows ... 24 people dead ... one church in aswan still destroyed .... an egyptian people who still think copts cause problems , and now we have an egyptian people who will blame copts for shooting on the military AKA their sons

if you riot against the military ( who have guns ) dont be suprised when they shoot.

the men who rioted and died now left their wives and mothers without breadwinners.

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SherryMikhail

posted on Oct 10, 2011 - 02:14 PM

I have to say I agree a little with Tony.

What happened in Egypt yesterday was from protests and could've been avoided whereas a drive-by or bomb couldn't really be avoided... like Tony said, I am not tooooo surprised by the outcome as horrible as that sounds... But again, as Copts we need to stand up for ourselves at the same time..

There are only so many things that can be said... but I will definitely have to agree with your point number 2. Just like the revolution - I was there for most of it until everything settled - pretty much most of the time you follow the rules your good.. Get involved and you are at your own risk.

This time it was clear the military was greatly involved.. I think it's essential that they done an autopsy!! So important, but they just go straight to the funeral - not so smart is it? So is half the things egyptians do that leads to chaos in general...

Pray.

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geomekhaiel

posted on Oct 11, 2011 - 12:59 AM

Interesting...Interesting...

When thinking about this whole situation I find that my heart/mind polarize towards two opposite opinions and I end up settling somewhere in between. On one side, part of me sort of shrugs off what happens in Egypt because, practically speaking, I wasn't born in Egypt and I can't pretend to have feelings towards the horrible things that happen there. I feel like expressing myself as being "saddened" by the violence in Egypt would be a type of hypocrisy. I understand why people take it so personally because many of our congregation members were born and lived in Egypt. On the other hand, the humanitarian part of me is deeply saddened by any violence which occurs anywhere...especially towards Christians. I am reminded of the saying, "When the eye of the needle touches the body the whole body shrieks in pain." We are all one body in Christ and when one part of the body takes a blow then the entire body reacts and feels the pain. This side of the spectrum causes me to feel sad for the things that happen in Egypt and I am especially moved when I see people at church who are deeply affected by what happens in Egypt.

As far as your actual points go...

1. If it was your church, would you feel the same way? ...I'm sure there's another church you could go to that's not that far away.

2. If your teta/mom/dad (who also went to ur church...which just got destroyed) took to the streets and rioted and got killed, would you say, "it's her business...totally her fault...she should have known what was going to happen."

3. I agree with you on this point. However, given their high emotional state, I would argue that their emotions drove them to the point of putting themselves in harms way.

...sorry for using ur grandma/mom/dad in addressing point 2 but I really wanted to bring the point home.

George Mekhaiel

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mikokiko

posted on Oct 11, 2011 - 08:10 AM

Think about it. What do you think martyrdom is? You guys are trivializing martyrdom. Martyrdom is standing up to what you believe, knowing that it will cause you harm, and that you might die for it (and eventually do). These people protested because they weren't afraid of what can happen to the Body. They didn't fear death, and stood up for what they believed. They protested the burning of the Churches. We mourn for their loss from this world. We mourn the regretful actions of the Egyptian military. Not because we are 'surprised' or 'shocked' by it, but because it is morally reprehensible. It's sad to hear people say things like:
"i feel all this bloodshed could of been avoided if the copts in aswan did not rebel against the demolition of their church , because so far the fruits of their efforts are as follows ... 24 people dead ... one church in aswan still destroyed ..."

With that kind of logic, orthodox Christianity would have disappeared from the face of the earth. Blood HAD to be shed to save the true faith of the Cross. The witnessing to Christ, and the fearlessness of His followers of death, is what kept the faith growing and alive more than ever in the first centuries. Think about it, you can say the same to the apostles, of whom, the vast majority were killed. "Did you have to put yourself in these tough situation? So far the fruits of your efforts, are that 70 of you are dead, and your churches are being burned everywhere."

You fear death. They don't.

GB

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mikokiko

posted on Oct 11, 2011 - 10:34 AM

"Yet for Your sake we are killed all day long; We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter."
(Romans 8:36/Psalm 44:22)

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tonyhabibi

posted on Oct 11, 2011 - 01:09 PM

Mikokiko don't take my posts personally for as I said before I am just opening a forum for a debate and my debate has to do with the context in which these 24 people died . I already wrote above how I know the egyptian army was wrong , how I know its uinjust , how it is a massacre , but unlike previous attacks against copts which usually are unprovoked this attack was a provoked attack by the copts it seems by taking to the streets , they knew they would be shot at and that's exactly what happened . I'm not saying its right , I'm saying its just expected . Also we cannot continue to milk our history of martyrdom in todays context because the romans don't rule the world and there are not massive killing of christians on a grand scale . The u.s army ( the worlds best ) is made up of mostly christians , practicing or not , still christians . So u cannot tell me to associate myself with st mina and st george in the same spirit of martyrdom because the threat against my religion is simply not there as it was for them . losing ur life for a fairly new church in aswan just does not seem wo
rth it to me . I have one life , yet there are thousands of churches . And them dieing "for" me as u quoted is not true ... There death does not benefit me ... Only saddens me for the loss of bloodshed that could of been avoided

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tonyhabibi

posted on Oct 11, 2011 - 06:11 PM

Also , if everytime a kid name mina dies in cairo and we call him a martyr ... Doesn't this cheapen the blood of real martyrs .... Wait what is the context a person must die in to be called a martyr ???

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tonyhabibi

posted on Oct 12, 2011 - 01:03 AM

I ACTUALLY TAKE BACK EVERYTHING I SAID IN THIS POST . FORGIVE ME . I AM WRONG . I AM VERY SORRY .

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mikokiko

posted on Oct 12, 2011 - 02:08 AM

I'm not sure what your point is?

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tonyhabibi

posted on Oct 12, 2011 - 10:37 PM

i am taking back everything i said in this post ... as i did more investigation ... i realized how wrong i was ....

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XerePistavros

posted on Oct 13, 2011 - 03:30 AM

I came to this thread thinking that it would be about how we should understand and pray for the devastating situation in Egypt.

After reading through a lot of your posts I feel disgusted about the stuff some of you are saying- blow up a church in aswan and its ok?! theres other to go to????????

You sound EXACTLY like the egyptian government, who are trying to escape the situation by making it seem so small and sweep the whole thing under the rug like their predecessors.

WE ARE ALL ONE BODY OF CHRIST! How can you be ok with anyone refusing our humanistic and religious rights to build a church and pray?

I was really saddened by what happened in Egypt, and coming to these coptic forums, I should hear sympathy and prayer for those lost to tragic events to their brothers and sisters, and hope that the Lord will deliver them from these times of suffering, but you all made my sadness 10 times worth.

May God forgive you

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tonyhabibi

posted on Oct 13, 2011 - 05:19 AM

if u read the entire thread you will read how i take back everything i said . and how i apologized for what i said . and i agree with you . what i wrote was pretty upsetting. thats why i awoke and apologized.

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ophadeece

posted on Oct 13, 2011 - 08:17 PM

Dear tonyhabibi,
Are you tripping? Are you talking gibberish? What do you mean by take back what you wrote because it was upsetting... seriously; what were you thinking? Do you really believe for a second that this Christian protest was provocative? Seriously? Well, if you don't know the fact, you should just edit all your previous posts and delete them.
Dear SherryMikhail,
I am appalled by your answer to tonyhabibi. I cannot understand your claim of being in Egypt (if that is what you meant by the word "there") during the revolution, and the protests, and how you should play by the rules... what rules are you talking about? Thugs infiltrated the peaceful protest at the top end of Shoubra (elqolaly) as well as the outset (eldawaran), and that is a distance of around 3.5 - 4 miles, that could have been legged in no less than 45-60 minutes if people were scurrying. During all of that time Christians did not fire a bullet, yeah, or hit back except with pelting rocks when they were shot at several times, and still they marched on. Then they travelled around 2 - 2.5 miles more (all of this and the scaf clearly wasn't aware of how peaceful the demonstration was... haha... very funny), and on the way, a small distance from, Maspero they find another infiltration and a heavy fire shooting amongst them by thugs, and then the army replies... seriously? Christians provoked them A LITTLE BIT... really?
Dear geomikhail,
How can you see the point from tonyhabibi's view, even when you were not born in Egypt. Please clarify to me again. I can understand the rest of your post, but I specifically ask for clarification for the first point.
Oujai qen `P[C

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tonyhabibi

posted on Oct 14, 2011 - 01:03 AM

this is nearly the 5th time i am saying this . it is getting rather annoying . since my apology was no enough for you sitting on your couch ... let me write a more detailed apology .....

Egyptians are infamous for over exaggerating and for getting out of hand in places where they shouldent . so using my experience with egyptians , i wrote my first post.

then as i did more research into the events , i realized that the copts did not provoke the egyptian army , after all ... they have the guns , and whome shot whom ?

we are not reading about 24 soldiers dead , but 24 copts dead.

so i logged into ch.net ... and apologized promptly - asking people to disregard what i wrote for i myself dont agree with my own writings .

The reason i do not delete my initial post is because it would seem to be the cowardly thing to do ,.... would it not ?


again .... for the sake of clarification .... I am sorry for writing what i wrote on this forum concerning this matter .... what i am not sorry for .. is the 5 apologies i have written to retract myself.

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ophadeece

posted on Oct 14, 2011 - 12:43 PM

Cowardly deleting your posts?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Well, I don't agree... and it seems I annoyed you... well I am sorry
Oujai qen `P[C

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geomekhaiel

posted on Oct 15, 2011 - 04:01 AM

From ophadeece:
Dear geomikhail,
How can you see the point from tonyhabibi's view, even when you were not born in Egypt. Please clarify to me again. I can understand the rest of your post, but I specifically ask for clarification for the first point.
Oujai qen `P[C

Ophadeece,

Let me clarify what I was trying to say....

Christian persecution is a horrible thing and we are all saddened by it, however, it is my opinion that we personalize the persecution in Egypt because of our egyptian ethnicity. I simply feel like this whole thing is taken to be extremely personal by our congregations because many of them lived in egypt. There is Christian persecution happening all over the world but we are only gut-wrenched by the persecution which hits home. It's really a sad thing because there are so many other Christians being persecuted in other parts of the world.

The point that I was trying to make falls back on the fact that I'm not born in Egypt so I find it difficult to be personally affected by the things that are going on there. I feel as though if I walk around wearing a sad face about the bad things which happen to Christians in Egypt then it is hypocrisy because I would only be doing it for show as opposed to genuinely feeling affected by their situation. I am saddened by what is happening in Egypt in the same way that I am saddened by what is happening in other parts of the world and in a similar way to how I am saddened by persecution which I go through everyday here in America. Not being accepted by your world for your faith is not something which is limited to Egypt. If they persecuted the our Lord then it is only expected that they will persecute His servants.

Open my eyes and correct me if I am wrong.

George Mekhaiel

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ophadeece

posted on Oct 15, 2011 - 12:04 PM

Dear geomekhail,
Thanks for your clarification. I see where you are coming from now, although knowing you I wouldn't have hoped to hear this at all. It is hard to sympathise with things that you have no connection with (although I presume, maybe I am wrong, that you have Egyptian roots). Ok you saying you can not personalise or take it personally... for me it is a bit hard-hearted... if a bully enters your classroom and starts bullying girls, how would you feel (I am presuming you are a gentleman)? If there is no sympathy, means there is no allegiance, there is no loyalty. I am not asking you or even hoping that you have any loyalty to Egypt but to Christians all over the world (even the unorthodox in some way, maybe a bit afar, but still) but from my own personal point of view, we should do. Sorry for my harsh-sounding and judgemental attitude.
Oujai qen `P[C

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ophadeece

posted on Oct 15, 2011 - 12:08 PM

And by the way, why is this the first time not only on coptichymns.net, but also on tasbeha.org that people feel they are disconnected from Christians in Egypt? Sad this is in my opinion... hasn't been the case with the burnings of churches before, with the pulling down of fortresses, with sharia law application, with bombing a church over new year, or with murdering Christians on Nativity night!!! Sad
Oujai qen `P[C

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geomekhaiel

posted on Oct 15, 2011 - 07:58 PM

Ophadeece, thank you for your response! I don't think that you are being judgmental, rather, I know that you are coming from a good place and are just helping encourage everyone (including me ) towards edifying themselves. I am thankful for members like you who encourage in love.

I am having a hard time seeing that our views conflict with one another. I previously stated (in both of last two posts) that I am saddened by any Christian persecution anywhere, however, I have a hard time feeling personally affected by what happens in Egypt on a personal level because I have never lived there. I am bothered/saddened by it just as I am bothered/saddened by Christian persecution which occurs all over the world. I simply feel that our congregations take the attacks personally because of their ethnic ties to Egypt as opposed the attacks being against Christianity.

Christianity is being persecuted everywhere...we only protest when it happens in Egypt.

George

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geomekhaiel

posted on Oct 17, 2011 - 03:29 AM

I must admit, in this morning's liturgy our priest read the names of the 25 who died last week during the diptych. While listening to names being read I couldn't help but feel some sad. I guess that hearing their names made the whole situation so real...well, more real than it was before this morning's liturgy.

Pray for peace

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tonyhabibi

posted on Oct 17, 2011 - 09:24 PM

you know george it was only after me watching a video on youtube of a woman describing her fiances death by the hands of the army that i sympathized greatly with the copts in egypt . i guess since it happened so far away , we have a hard time truly believing it all.

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ophadeece

posted on Oct 18, 2011 - 07:33 PM

Dear geomekhaiel,
Thanks very much for your reply. In fact your next to last post really opened my eyes on what tonyhabibi meant at first, and you afterwards... I guess as well as SherryMikhail too. I cannot claim that I felt the same towards burning the churches in Indonesia, or Iraq, or even Nigeria where there were planned killings of Christians as much as what happened in Egypt. I still think that you are (plural) of Egyptian descent, and I guess that is what left a bitter taste in my mouth so to speak. In psychology, you have to first be loyal to yourself, then to your family, then to you religion, then to your home nation, then to your ancestors, etc. I can now understand where you are coming from although I was rather peeved at this thread because it falls in the latter category. But not every body is the same... so at least let's not speak negatively, or belittle the events that are taking place.
NB: No one in my family has participated in these events in Egypt, neither nigh or far...
Oujai qen `P[C

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minasoliman

posted on Oct 24, 2011 - 05:34 PM

I wanted to add something that I hope protestors work on next time. Copts in Egypt, although they may have some Muslim hostility, they also have a lot of Muslim sympathy and support. If would wise to unite with those Muslims on the next protests, carrying crosses in their hearts, but the Egypt flags up high, symbolically to show that they care about carrying Egypt with their hands, hand-in-hand with their brothers and sisters the Muslims. If we can do that, the army might think twice before they drive over certain people.

I am very angry against the Egyptian army, especially at not at least showing that they will bring certain soldiers to justice. But they're politically stupid, and they try to show that every soldier holds "ideal" virtues of an Egyptian soldier.

At the same time, at the risk of sounding a bit controversial, we shouldn't alienate those who support our cause by carrying our crosses up high at the exclusion of the Egyptian flag. If anything, as I said before, carry your crosses close to your heart, and carry Egypt (the Egyptian flag) on your hand. Martin Luther King did not exclusively march with his own church and those who close to his beliefs. He asked white people, Muslim black people (even reunited with Malcolm X despite the insults thrown at Dr. King), even other churches, like the Greek Orthodox Church, the Roman Catholics, etc. all marched with Dr. King. To make alliances for the sake of Coptic rights in Egypt is stronger than to stand alone.

To remember one Maspero martyr, Mena Danial, who was a major Tahrir participator, loved by both Christians and Muslims alike. He tried to get the Copts to carry Egyptian flags so as not to alienate the extremely small number of Muslims that were marching with them. But emotions seem to flare high and crosses were being carried higher, and flags passed around were ignored, and it's unfortunate to hear from the same people such heretically emotional cries like "With our soul and blood, we defend the Cross". Let's not give those terrorists, the Salafis and Ikhwan in the streets and army a reason to run the Copts over again. And we need a Coptic Ghandi, a Coptic MLK, a Coptic Mandela to help increase sympathy for Coptic rights in Egypt. I believe these days are a golden chance to have one, and the soil in Egypt is ripe for such a person.

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