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theophilos

posted on Mar 16, 2010 - 12:44 AM

I read, with utter *shock*, the letters from the bishops in the United States asking church congregations to enter "Copt" under the "Race" question in the US 2010 Census form.

Here's an online petition asking the bishops to re-consider their stance. Please sign it if you agree.

<removed by admin>

Also, here's the Facebook group for the same, with images of the letter from the bishops.

<removed by admin>

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Sherif

Joined: Mar 06, 2003 | Posts: 507
Location: Silicon Valley

Pharaoh

posted on Mar 16, 2010 - 01:00 AM

Theophilos,

Thanks for letting us know about this. Any call for Copts to enter "Copt" as their race should be rescinded.

God Bless

Joined: Jan 08, 2003 | Posts: 153

Epideacon

posted on Mar 16, 2010 - 03:25 AM

I must be confused. Why is this a bad thing? I was under the impression that, because of the events this past Christmas, by putting "Coptic" we would be alerting the government about the presence of Copts in America and their distinction from other "Egyptians" in an effort to raise awareness of the plight of Copts in Egypt. That way, the next time all the Copts around the world decide to go to Washington and hold demonstrations, the government would actually know who Copts are and where they're coming from and what they want. Is the issue maybe that some people don't think that "Copt" is a race? Why rescind this order? And on that note, what should we put for race in the census form?

Joined: Apr 27, 2006 | Posts: 104

CopticSoldier

posted on Mar 16, 2010 - 04:20 AM

Hi Guys,

Yeah I kind of agree on this point, I wouldn't be so hasty to paint this as a poor political decision albeit I'm sure that it probably looks bad to the uninitiated.

I think the problem is that the official census in Egypt is corrupt and they may want to use something like this as a vehicle for getting genuine numbers of Coptic Christian migrants in America.

I would suggest we encourage people who started the petition and page to take them down mate, it already has a non-copt on it from Australia and I can see that a lot of the signatures will come from Egyptian moslems if word gets out.

This paints the episcopacy in a really bad light and taking an issue like this to a international public forum is not a Christian way of asking our elders to recind their request if it genuinley is inapproprite.

If something like this ought to be done, then it should be within our own family and not for the neighbours to see.

God bless,

CS

Joined: Jan 25, 2004 | Posts: 828
Location: Melbourne, Australia.

amen

posted on Mar 16, 2010 - 04:28 AM

Hey Theo

I really have no idea why you have been so aggrevated by this.

Are we lying when we say we are copts?

Isnt that our race?

You consider yourself white, well last time i checked people from Africa where termed Negroids not white!

Just a thought.

Im In australia and i always identify myself as an Aboriginal of Egypt, a Native Copt and proud of it!

Amen
www.stnoufer.wordpress.com

Joined: Dec 22, 2005 | Posts: 18

maherkaldas

posted on Mar 16, 2010 - 04:40 AM

Hi,

I think everyone should adhere to the instructions given by the Church. There are legitimate reasons for the request. Please stop any effort to block the Bishops instructions.

There are things no one knows about till it becomes public later. I think on this one if you do not want to comply just do not participate.

I am taking the links above out.

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Pharaoh

posted on Mar 16, 2010 - 05:02 AM

Too bad. Theophilus had a very valid point. The census instructions are quite clear and "Coptic" does not constitute a race by most definitions. How are Egyptian Coptic Christians different, as a race as defined by the Census Bureau, than Egyptians of another religion? They are not different.

There are a number of arguments above which do not make sense. CopticSoldier, compromising the integrity of the US census for purposes of trying to better approximate the Coptic Christian population is not right. The fact that the census in Egypt is not accurate does not give us the right to compromise the US census. Also, I believe the US census asks specifically about religion. That is the place for us to state
that we are Coptic Orthodox Christians.

Amen, please check the definition of "negroid". It is not "people from Africa".

God Bless

Joined: Jan 08, 2003 | Posts: 153

amen

posted on Mar 16, 2010 - 08:03 AM

Pharoh what does "negroid" mean

Websters dictionary states the following under negroid: a person with dark skin who comes from Africa (or whose ancestors came from Africa)

The Argument that we are not a race, is silly and any anthropologist will say the copts are a race of Egypt. Whether governments say so or not is not the issue! Perhaps we should get behind a move to win some representation for our forefathers.

God Bless

Amen
www.stnoufer.wordpress.com

Joined: Dec 22, 2005 | Posts: 18

theophilos

posted on Mar 16, 2010 - 05:39 PM

Amen,

Are we lying when we say we are copts?

Isnt that our race?

That's right, we would be lying...because there is no such thing as a "Coptic race"!

Apart from the fact that the whole concept of "race" is flawed and dangerous, if you look at the genetic make up of Egyptians, both Christian and Muslim (or whatever religion), you will find a distribution of genetic markers which make them indistinguishable from each other.

Maher,

First of all, silencing those who oppose your view by taking down the link illustrates the issues we are dealing with here. You are treating the request by the bishops to be an official church instruction that is not to be opposed. That is not true.

I think everyone should adhere to the instructions given by the Church

This is not a matter of faith, dogma, theology, or any matter over which the Church has authority. This is a question about the Census - and the stance taken by the bishops is illogical and downright dangerous. And it needs to be called out as so. I am not accusing them of heresy or violation of some Church canon.

Unlike you, I welcome debate about the issue. So here's the link again:

<removed by admin>

<removed by admin>

Please keep them up.

<b>Copticsoldier:Removed again, please do not use a church resource to send instructions that go against the expressed request of the Bishop.</b>

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Location: Silicon Valley

theophilos

posted on Mar 16, 2010 - 07:51 PM

a fascinating blog post summarizing some scientific papers on the genetic make-up of Egyptians (of all religious affiliations):

http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpr ... egyptians/

The variation in genetic makeup, as you will see in the blog post, is actually between those who live in Lower Egypt (near the Nile Delta) and those who live in Upper Egypt (our beloved sa3ayda). Turns out the sa3ayda are really, truly Egyptians...whereas the rest of us from Lower Egypt have higher percentages of foreign DNA (makes sense - people from the Mediterranean coasts were exposed to migration from Europeans like Greeks, etc.)

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Sherif

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AntoniousNikolas

posted on Mar 16, 2010 - 08:32 PM

Peace to All.

What our Masters the Bishops are instructing us to do makes sense.

His Holiness Pope Shenouda III teaches us in his book 1000 Answers to 100 Questions that all men are 1 race, descended from Adam and Eve, Noah and his sons. (pages 168-170).

That being the case, "race" is a man made categorization, and it is always being re-evaluated and modified.

Have you seen the categories for "race" on the US Census? If not, go to the website.

I have one in my hand:

Japanese is a "race"
Chinese is a "race"
Korean is a "race"
Filipino is a "race"
Vietnamese is a "race"

They are not grouped together as "East Asian".

Hawaiian is a "race"
Guamanian is a "race"
Samoan is a "race"

They are not grouped together as "Polynesian".

This is in defiance of man's "traditional" racial classifications, which would groups these peoples as being different nations within one so-called "race".

So why are they separate "races" on the census? This has to due with the prestige and influence these groups have achieved in the US.

Why not the Copts as well?

So what the Bishops are asking us to do makes sense not only because in the US "white" colloquially refers to people of European descent, but in terms of common sense as well.

God Bless.

P.S. - Look who is signing this petition! 4/9 non-Copts, Westerners who have nothing to do with the discussion or how Copts define themselves, and one undetermined. So half or more non-Copts.

P.P.S. - According to the anthropological info linked by Theophilus, Upper Egyptians are 80% indigenous African in DNA and Lower Egyptians 64% indigenous African.

It says: "Southern Egyptians Y Chromomses are mainly native to Africa, both sub and supra Saharan." in other words, having most DNA in common with sub-Saharan Africans...doesn't sound "white" to me, especially in a country where colloquially "white" means "European".

Joined: Jul 06, 2005 | Posts: 2

theophilos

posted on Mar 16, 2010 - 09:34 PM

Hi Antonious,

This is not so much about entering "white" as it is about designating Christian Egyptians as being a separate race from Muslim Egyptians. That is not true.

A good solution could be that all people of Egyptian ancestry living in the US, irrespective of religion, should write "Coptic" under race.

Joined: Mar 06, 2003 | Posts: 507
Location: Silicon Valley

aiernovi

posted on Mar 16, 2010 - 09:51 PM

I just want to say that I disagree with posts that suggest that writing "Coptic" is somehow disingenuous. Also, it is superfluous to use genetic markers as a basis to determine race because it is a fluid, man-made, identifier. If you feel you are culturally different from non-coptic arabs, this can be enough for you to write "coptic" as your race. In fact, the census in 2000 explicitly states that race categories include both racial and national-origin groups. Also, according to the census, race is based solely on SELF-IDENTIFICATION by people according to the race or races with which they most closely identify. This is an important point. Race is not defined by the gov't, according to the census, but rather, it is defined by the person themselves. I listen to Coptic music, read in Coptic, draw Coptic art, celebrate Coptic holidays, and associate myself most closely with Coptic culture. This is why I will write that I am Coptic. If you don't feel that Coptic is the race you associate yourself with, that is completely understandable. However, encouraging others to share your opinion by accusing them of being deceitful is not entirely accurate.

Forgive me if I have offended

Joined: Mar 18, 2008 | Posts: 17

aiernovi

posted on Mar 16, 2010 - 09:57 PM

Here is what the gov't itself says about the race question in the census.


1. The racial and ethnic categories set forth in the standards should not be interpreted as being primarily biological or genetic in reference. Race and ethnicity may be thought of in terms of social and cultural characteristics as well as ancestry.

2. Respect for individual dignity should guide the processes and methods for collecting data on race and ethnicity; ideally, respondent self-identification should be facilitated to the greatest extent possible, recognizing that in some data collection systems observer identification is more practical.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/fedreg_1997standards/

Joined: Mar 18, 2008 | Posts: 17

AntoniousNikolas

posted on Mar 16, 2010 - 11:47 PM

I have to agree with Aiernovi.

From theophilos:Hi Antonious,

This is not so much about entering "white" as it is about designating Christian Egyptians as being a separate race from Muslim Egyptians. That is not true.

A good solution could be that all people of Egyptian ancestry living in the US, irrespective of religion, should write "Coptic" under race.

Hello Brother,

Perhaps there should new categories that could include Egyptians and other populations from the Near and Middle East. There is a growing movement in this direction. Even Newsweek has taken note of it.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/234325

http://jilliancyork.com/2010/03/05/chec ... int-white/

I simply don't find the "white" label accurate, as if people from the Near and Middle East aren't "profiled" or distinguished from the Euro-American population in daily life.

I'm sure we've all heard by now of the Greek Orthodox priest badly beaten by a Marine resrvist with a tire iron because his complexion, beard, and black robe marked him as fitting the "terrorist" profile. The neanderthal who carried out beating this priest still won't admit an error, claiming that the priest shouted "Allahu Akhbar" and did other bizarre things of a sexual nature.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafe ... 050707.ece

God have mercy.

Joined: Jul 06, 2005 | Posts: 2

egydave

posted on Mar 17, 2010 - 01:42 AM

What on earth is wrong with you guys who do not want to categorize our race as "Coptic"? Let me start by saying that H.G. Bishop David did not pull this idea out of no where. He made sure that the Census would accept the ethnicity of "Coptic" or "Copt". The church has contacted Directors of the 2010 Census and they have given approval that in box number 9, we are able to write Coptic.

For those who wish to be so technical, "Coptic" actually is a race. The word Coptic means "Egyptian". The term refers to the Christian Egyptians themselves.

Dave

Joined: Aug 30, 2005 | Posts: 127
Location: Rhode Island, USA

maherkaldas

posted on Mar 17, 2010 - 02:31 AM

From theophilos:
Maher,

First of all, silencing those who oppose your view by taking down the link illustrates the issues we are dealing with here. You are treating the request by the bishops to be an official church instruction that is not to be opposed. That is not true.

I think everyone should adhere to the instructions given by the Church

Unlike you, I welcome debate about the issue. So here's the link again:
<removed by admin>
<removed by admin>
Please keep them up.
<b>Copticsoldier:Removed again, please do not use a church resource to send instructions that go against the expressed request of the Bishop.</b>

Hello to everyone,

I welcome the debate anytime and I disagree with a lot of people lots of times. But, i still respect their point of view.

However, your debate should be directed to the Bishop's face to face not using this forum to assemble people against the Church. To me the Bishop is representing our beloved father the Pope so, it is the Church you are going against here regardless you see that or not.

SINCE YOU DISAGREE WITH THIS INSTRUCTION. YOU CAN CHOOSE NOT TO PARTICIPATE IF YOU CHOOSE TO DO SO. AND EVERYONE OF THE SAME OPINION CAN DO THE SAME.

But, you can not collect signatures Via these forums.

The links were taken down before I finished writing the comment. But,if it were not I would of taken it down I assure you that.

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Maher Kaldas
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theophilos

posted on Mar 17, 2010 - 03:02 AM

Hi Maher,

I ended the petition earlier today actually, before your last post.

The original intention of the petition was that we would present to the bishops the request, signed by several Copts, to overturn their position.

The feedback I'm getting, overwhelmingly, is that people generally agree with the bishops. Hence I stopped the petition. I may disagree with people's opinions, but of course they are entitled to their views.

However, the discussion should continue in my opinion. This whole concept of a "Coptic race" I think needs to be addressed.

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Sherif

Joined: Mar 06, 2003 | Posts: 507
Location: Silicon Valley

Biboboy

posted on Mar 17, 2010 - 06:51 AM

Agape,

sorry about being frank, but this request by the bishops is not smart, and for one reason:

Muslim Egyptians are Coptic as well, since Coptic Christians converted to Islam over the centuries.

If anything is to be added the census, it should be "Egyptian," although that in-itself does not identify a particular race, but a nationality.

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amen

posted on Mar 17, 2010 - 08:18 AM

Mmmm i really have no idea why there is all this fuss

Egyptian is not a race, its a nationality as is said in the previous post.

Coptic Is sa race by definition, so lets move on, and if you are uncomfortable about writing that then dont!

Amen
www.stnoufer.wordpress.com

Joined: Dec 22, 2005 | Posts: 18

Truth.Seeker

posted on Mar 17, 2010 - 02:54 PM

I think the problem here is that Egyptian Muslims don't write "Coptic" under the race category . Our Bishops can tell them to - but it's not our Bishops' job to instruct Muslims.

Does this solve everyone's problem?

1) Muslims will never do it, which will keep "Coptic" to Copts.

2) It's technically correct because it's not making a racial distinction between Egypt's Christians and Muslims.

3) It's an actual race, since saying "Egyptian" is as smart as writing "American" if you're anglo-saxon.

4) That is, unless you want to write "white" or "caucasian" under your race, since that is our official categorization. To me, that is also stupid.

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theophilos

posted on Mar 17, 2010 - 09:21 PM

Amen,

Egyptian is not a race, its a nationality as is said in the previous post.

Coptic Is sa race by definition, so lets move on, and if you are uncomfortable about writing that then dont!

I believe this is the point we need to debate, even apart from the Census question.

The word "Coptic" and "Egyptian" are exact translations of each other, carrying exactly the same meaning.

So your two statements: "Egyptian is not a race" and "Coptic is a race" contradict each other. It's like saying "Egyptian is not a race" then saying "Egyptian is a race" in the next sentence - a direct contradiction.

But maybe we need to define "race" first. Amen: what does "race" mean to you?

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theophilos

posted on Mar 17, 2010 - 09:24 PM

Truth.Seeker,

I think the problem here is that Egyptian Muslims don't write "Coptic" under the race category . Our Bishops can tell them to - but it's not our Bishops' job to instruct Muslims.

This is precisely what this whole thing is about. It seems, and I can be corrected here, that the bishops want us to be counted *separately* from Egyptian Muslims. Even though both Christians and Muslims are of the same race!!

So...why strive for that kind of separation? Why must the divisive politics of Egypt follow us all the way here in America?

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Sherif

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maherkaldas

posted on Mar 17, 2010 - 11:05 PM

From theophilos:
So...why strive for that kind of separation? Why must the divisive politics of Egypt follow us all the way here in America?

Does Egypt Treat your Brothers and Sisters there in a better manner? are you counted one of the 6% of Christians they always claim or not?

Are you able to get your fair chance to be a successful surgeon or obstetrician?
if you answer just 1 of these YES I will agree with you and I will help you!!!!

BY the WAY Coptic adj pertains to the Copts and their Church ( The new WEBSTER'S comprehensive dictionary deluxe edition 1993 So, It could be considered a race.

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theophilos

posted on Mar 17, 2010 - 11:21 PM

Maher,

We are dealing with the Census of the United States. The fights between Christians and Muslims should not extend to here. Here, all stand equal before the law, and the constitution. Which is why we moved here...walla eh?

BY the WAY Coptic adj pertains to the Copts and their Church ( The new WEBSTER'S comprehensive dictionary deluxe edition 1993 So, It could be considered a race.

Umm, no. According to this definition it's just a religious adjective, pertaining to a religious group and its adherents. It says nothing about the adherents' race.

For example, an Irish American who was baptized into the Coptic Orthodox Church is Coptic...but is he Egyptian? Nope. So the Webster dictionary definition would apply to a non-Egyptian very readily. And hence, Coptic cannot be a race.

I don't know why you guys keep ignoring the genetic evidence, which is overwhelming. Egyptians of all faiths share a common genetic makeup. The differences in foreign genetic components actually are more pronounced according to location along the Nile, with Egyptians living in Northern Egypt having more foreign DNA (makes sense because of proximity to the Mediterranean and Sinai, which is a passage to Arabia and the Levant).

Scientifically speaking, Egyptians of all faiths share common genetic makeup. You cannot distinguish them genetically. Thus, how can they be of different "races"?

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