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posted on Mar 15, 2010 - 01:28 AM
Does anyone have any information on whether the Palm Sunday general funeral prayers should be prayed in joyous or mournful tone. Anba David visited our Church a few years ago and insisted that we pray it in a joyful tone because it immediately followed the Feast. But most of the hymns found are mournful for this particular service (Ethve te, etc). If anyone has any information about this subject, I would appreciate it.
posted on Mar 15, 2010 - 04:02 AM
Rite of the Prayer of the General Funeral
The Prayer of the General Funeral begins with the reading of the prophecies, followed by the Pauline in the mournful tune. The Trisagion is then chanted in the mournful tune, and in all three times `o `ctaurw;ic di`ymac `eleycon `ymac is said in substitution for the regular annual response. The priest then says the Litany of the Gospel, followed by the reading of the Psalm in the Attriby tune, and then the reading of the Gospel in the mournful tune. After this, the priest prays the three major litanies (the Peace, Fathers, and Congregations), followed by the Orthodox Creed, the Litany of the Departed, the Lord’s Prayer, and the three Absolutions. The priest then raises the cross while chanting, V] nai nan in the mournful tune. The congregation replies with Kur`ie `eleycon twelve times, followed by the hymn `Pouro , both of them in the mournful tune. Following each verse in `Pouro , Kur`ie `eleycon is chanted six times. In the conclusion of the prayer, the Concluding Canon is chanted in the same manner as in Passion (Pascha) Week.
This was taken from the rites encyclopedia on the heritage site, found in this link: http://copticheritage.org/modules.php?o ... age_id=758
hope that helps!
God bless
Tony
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posted on Mar 15, 2010 - 04:35 AM
Does anyone have any evidence that the service is to be joyous (as in the Holy Fifty days) because it is a feast day? Does there have to be a time separation between the end of the Palm Sunday Feast and the Funeral Service to enable to be sung in the mournful tones?
Also note this...HH Pope Shenouda writes in an article from Keraza 2006:
"Palm Sunday is a Master’s Feast, so it is not
appropriate that the Pascha grieving prayers start
right after the Divine Liturgy because they
contradict with the joy of the feast. It is enough
to hold the General Funeral Prayers, as for the
Pascha starts on the sunset of Sunday. Also the
black curtains are not placed at the end of Palm
Sunday Liturgy. Some fall into these two mistakes
for speeding purposes."
posted on Mar 15, 2010 - 02:29 PM
Dear delbog,
I think I still hold on to the opinion of the different books of rites. They did mention that after the Liturgy of Palm Sunday finishes the mourning funeral prayer starts in sad tunes. In all honesty, I find it a very difficult argument to swallow to sing those sad tunes in annual or joyful tunes. Please note that it is exactly like praying on a dead body that we are mimicking at that point.
Yes, first I agree it is a major Lord feast, but the Liturgy has FINISHED. You would still mourn for those even on the next morning of Epiphany or Nativity (although I am not quite sure what the practice was in Qena this year for our blessed martyrs). The only exception is the holy fifty days.
Second, in all other joyful days (between Nativity and Circumcision, fifteen days after Nayrouz, and three days of Epiphany), Kiahk days, sa3anini days, if you pray for a departed soul, what would you pray in? Is it not sad?
Third, prayers of old used to take longer, and that meant that Liturgy used to finish after twilight, and probably that is why it was practical on those days to the extent that they didn't feel the need to specify a timing in the rites' books.
Fourth, funeral service is a service in its own rite. Please note that we asked for the service of my wedding to take place after matins prayers in Abib/July 07, and although the matins and the Liturgy were annual, the wedding service was joyful - again, that is a service in its own right.
oujai qen `P[C
posted on Apr 04, 2010 - 11:06 PM
Sorry for the late reply...
Consultation with HG. Bighop Mettaos asserts that the General Funeral is to be in the farayhi tune. Seeing that Anba david and anba mettaos have the same view, it would appear as though this is a decision of bishops, rather then the opinions Of laymen.
Maherkaldas, durring farayhi days, such as the Nayrouz feast untill the feast of the cross, the nativity untill the circumsision, and the 50 days, all funerals are prayed in the faraihi tune. Why should a majour feast such as Palm sunday be any different. The simple answer is... It is not any different. The general funeral is to be prayed in the farihi tune.
in the risen XC
Sinner
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A member of the HCOC (The Heritage of the Coptic Orthodox Choir)
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OH YE DRY BONES, HERE THE WORD OF THE LORD! (Ezekiel 37:4)
posted on Apr 05, 2010 - 07:20 PM
From asinner:
Maherkaldas, during farayhi days, such as the Nayrouz feast until the feast of the cross, the nativity untill the circumcision, and the 50 days, all funerals are prayed in the faraihi tune. Why should a major feast such as Palm Sunday be any different. The simple answer is... It is not any different. The general funeral is to be prayed in the farihi tune.
in the risen XC
Sinner
HI,
Till this is adopted by the congregation of Bishops " El Takas" remains as the tradition of the Church since that is the way our Church works. Once a change is adopted and passed on as a CHANGE. I refrain from following any other .
Sorry, we do not go by opinions.
AND if i may make this counter point, The General funeral is done after the end of Palm Sunday (the night of Monday)since the day starts at sundown ( like any other day in the Coptic calender) Palm Sunday is already done by the conclusion of the Holy communion and since the General funeral can not start as long the communion is going and before the conclusion of service...( contrary to some practices) and since Palm Sunday half of its responses in Sh'ainini tone and the other in annual not in Farehi Tone as you Claim we can not follow this new line of thinking...The General funeral is in mournful Tone.
Another reason is Orignally the service was separeate from the Palm Sunday Service where people would go home and return for the service but, now we do it right after Palm Sunday so, all these are points for you to study before you tell anyone FAREHI...
YOU KNOW WHY THAT WILL NEVER CHANGE:
because that will require to change the entire service order
proficy .. Farehi?....Esvete... Farehi? Agioc... Farehi? Psalm .. Singari?...Tarh.. Farehi?
posted on Apr 06, 2010 - 05:33 AM
Actually, many people have asked this question. The original rite was to pray the General Funeral after the Nine Hour, which is 3 pm. So, it is natural to design it so that it is mournful. In the 14th or the 15th century, the church found that many people do not attend it since the evening service of that day becomes so long (General Funeral, 9th and 11th hours of Palm Sunday then 5 hours of the Monday eve), so they decided to pray it right after the liturgy of Palm Sunday. At some point they prayed it during communion but they fixed that after and prayed it after they finished communion. In all cases, they brought it with its original tune, which is mournful. 3 years ago, the pope announced that on Palm Sunday, people should leave the church feeling it is a Joyous event, and churches got confused what to do. Some churches prayed the General Funeral in the annual tune, others prayed it at 4 pm in the mournful tune. Just last year in 2008, the Holy Synod decided that the General Funeral would be prayed in the Annual Tune. I know that they should have announced that in El Keraza, but they didn't!
This is the reason why people are still confused, because the Holy Synod assumed that each bishop will inform the churches he is responsible for, but not every one did. I will try to prepare a detailed booklet of the "new" General Funeral prayers and put it up for next year, so no one would be confused about it.
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posted on Apr 06, 2010 - 04:58 PM
<C anecty
Dear Albair, maherkaldas, and all,
With all due respect to the Holy Synod, how can you fathom praying the Pauline without e;be ]anactacyc - or how would you say it in annual ceremonial in the first place?
Why do we sing the weddings rituals in joyful on annual days?
Why do we sing the funeral rituals in mournful on annual or fasting days?
Why do we sing the second Psalm (and the vespers one) on annual in Palm Sunday ritual?
I am afraid there is something that I am completely against: the concept that annual ceremonial is the basic tune, and every other ceremonial overrides it. That is wrong. I think certain prayers have certain tunes that do not change by the time of day, or year that they are said (exceptions being the major feasts of the Lord, and the holy fifty days). I don't think rituals override each other, but just basically what is more important is given some priority and emphasis. Hence I don't think it is wise to sing e;be ]anactacyc or any of the tunes of the general funeral in annual, or joyful tunes.
oujai qen `P[C
posted on Apr 06, 2010 - 11:34 PM
From ophadeece: how can you fathom praying the Pauline without e;be ]anactacyc - or how would you say it in annual ceremonial in the first place?
Why can't you just say the Annual Pauline Pavlos `ebwk? Does it have to be e;be ]anactacyc ? You still can say e;be ]anactacyc on Good Friday.
Why do we sing the weddings rituals in joyful on annual days?
Why do we sing the funeral rituals in mournful on annual or fasting days?
Simple. We are not fasting when there is a wedding. So there is no need to go into the annual tune. Even the funeral rite changes during the Pentecost. I don't think the funeral rite needs to be as rigid as you're making it out to be.
Why do we sing the second Psalm (and the vespers one) on annual in Palm Sunday ritual?
This I have no good answer for. I don't know the logic behind this rite but nonetheless, it is an official rite by the Holy Synod.
I am afraid there is something that I am completely against: the concept that annual ceremonial is the basic tune, and every other ceremonial overrides it. That is wrong.
But this is exactly what we do for the Eucharist rite. The annual rite is the basic tune and it changes during Kiahk, Lent, Palm Sunday, Pentecost and Feasts, etc.
I think certain prayers have certain tunes that do not change by the time of day, or year that they are said (exceptions being the major feasts of the Lord, and the holy fifty days).
No. It's the other way around. Most rites change tunes because of an occasion. Very few rites stay the same year round. The only one I can think of Baptism.
I don't think rituals override each other, but just basically what is more important is given some priority and emphasis. Hence I don't think it is wise to sing e;be ]anactacyc or any of the tunes of the general funeral in annual, or joyful tunes.
What about the other side of the coin? Do we loose the importance or priority of a feast because of a funeral? Do we forget Hosanna who came to save us in order to bury ourselves. As Christ said, "Let the dead bury the dead." Funeral prayers are not the priority, the Triumphant entry into Jerusalem - which is a foreshadow of our triumphant entry into heaven as spoken about in the Book of Revelation - that is what is important.
And most importantly, let us not forget that we must completely obey the leaders whom God ordained over us. The Holy Synod is not infallible, but we can't let our opinions superceed their God-given responsibility to shepherd our souls.
George
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posted on Apr 07, 2010 - 04:35 PM
<C anecty
Dear George and Albair,
Let's be clear on one what I call a good principle. Our rituals are for the unity of the churches and not division, and please try to understand that things are getting complicated for most people to the extent of divisions now. If we cannot unify the way we sing some tunes, then that is not an excuse to cause more divisions by coming up with new instructions for churches to follow ignoring the practices of old. I am afraid that we deal with our rites without enough research and evidence, truly so because of lack of resources for many reasons that are not worth mentioning in this topic.
Please answer this question for me: someone on youthbishopric.com asked such a question: how do we not consider Maundy Thursday a major feast of the Lord? Not only that, but the rites of that day is that we go through the Passion prayers matins, third, sixth and ninth hour, and then laqqan (which is annual, and not mournful)? and then the Liturgy which is annual (apparently according to nahdet el kana2es the psalm should even be half joyful half annual), and then during Communion the eleventh hour mournful. Yes I am aware of Pope Shenouda's suggestions of singing Psalm 150 during Communion (although I am not convinced again), contrary to the teachings of old, although no body talked about the Communion on Bright Saturday, during which we recite prophecies in the form of psalms (pretty much the same principle as Covenant Thursday) that contain pain and passion as integral parts to the verses, but probably nobody raised any doubts, or started debates, because not many people attend anyway.
Dear George, you haven't really given me a good explanation for my questions anyway. I take it, as you haven't read what I quoted before. I requested my marriage to be done last week of July (mid-Abib) according to the proper rites, and they prayed matins in annual tune, then weddings rites in joyful, and then the Liturgy in annual. Why? Because certain services have certain tunes. Annual is not basic. Kiahky doesn't override it. Lenten doesn't override it. Joyful doesn't override it - it is just the emphasis of those rituals you want to convey. So even during Covenant Thursday you revert to annual for the anaphora of laqqan (which does make sense). Same thing should apply for the anaphora of laqqan on Epiphany feast, but people don't seem to agree anymore. One last point, I am not letting my opinions supersede or overstep the Holy Synod's instructions, but I am questioning the reasons for things that change for no apparent reason. Thanks for reading...
oujai qen `P[C
posted on Apr 09, 2010 - 11:03 PM
From Albair:By the way, the Second psalm of Palm Sunday should be Singary, not annual. Same thing goes for the Vespers one. New books corrected this problem in the previous ones.
Since when and to which "new books" are we talking about?
Here is a pdf of the presentations we used in Saint Mark's JC, NJ. for
both our services: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=27280ASP
posted on Apr 11, 2010 - 05:15 PM
From ophadeece:<C anecty
Dear George and Albair,
..I am afraid that we deal with our rites without enough research and evidence
oujai qen `P[C
Ophadeece,
Muallem Albair's comments are always well researched and backed up by references from old manuscripts (centuries old) as well as the latest decisions of the Holy Synod. In fact, his "Deacon's Service" book has been checked by Bishop Mettaos and the Rites Committee of the Holy Synod.
posted on Apr 11, 2010 - 05:30 PM
"abahoor"From Albair:By the way, the Second psalm of Palm Sunday should be Singary, not annual. Same thing goes for the Vespers one. New books corrected this problem in the previous ones.
Since when and to which "new books" are we talking about?
Albair, talks and researches everything to death with people that are the most knowledgeable in hymns all over Egypt. So, once it is written in his book take it from him without checking... you will not do better than him....TRUST ME ON THAT... God Bless his work..
posted on Apr 12, 2010 - 12:36 AM
From maherkaldas:"abahoor"From Albair:By the way, the Second psalm of Palm Sunday should be Singary, not annual. Same thing goes for the Vespers one. New books corrected this problem in the previous ones.
Since when and to which "new books" are we talking about?
Albair, talks and researches everything to death with people that are the most knowledgeable in hymns all over Egypt. So, once it is written in his book take it from him without checking... you will not do better than him....TRUST ME ON THAT... God Bless his work..
I am not against him habibi. I am personally very open to accepting these changes with due reasons......but i need those reasons and other sources to explain to others.
Laww kolle wahed in our Church does something with great effort and gets to a conclusion, he shouldn't expect others to just accept his conclusion without a fight/argument. I actually think that is the main reason for our churches to be so separated, but yet so untied.....koll wahed in saying "this is what we are doing because i know this is right" and he might be right;....someone else from another church would now come and says "NO", not because he thinks the other is wrong but simply "3endd feh" 
because we are all Egys in someway and our minds will become, at some point of time, like a se3edi.....even though this happens more freely everywhere OUTSIDE Egypt.
posted on Apr 12, 2010 - 01:34 AM
From abahoor:From maherkaldas:"abahoor"From Albair:By the way, the Second psalm of Palm Sunday should be Singary, not annual. Same thing goes for the Vespers one. New books corrected this problem in the previous ones.
Since when and to which "new books" are we talking about?
Albair, talks and researches everything to death with people that are the most knowledgeable in hymns all over Egypt. So, once it is written in his book take it from him without checking... you will not do better than him....TRUST ME ON THAT... God Bless his work..
I am not against him habibi. I am personally very open to accepting these changes with due reasons......but i need those reasons and other sources to explain to others.
Laww kolle wahed in our Church does something with great effort and gets to a conclusion, he shouldn't expect others to just accept his conclusion without a fight/argument. I actually think that is the main reason for our churches to be so separated, but yet so untied.....koll wahed in saying "this is what we are doing because i know this is right" and he might be right;....someone else from another church would now come and says "NO", not because he thinks the other is wrong but simply "3endd feh" because we are all Egys in someway and our minds will become, at some point of time, like a se3edi.....even though this happens more freely everywhere OUTSIDE Egypt.
i forgot to add this to my comment earlier.
It is all based on solid sources and wright teachings in the monasteries or manuscripts.
posted on Apr 12, 2010 - 02:06 AM
From abahoor:But some new editions of books and also newly oral sources (Like Ibrahim Ayad's for example) don't change this.
No, Ibrahim Ayad is not a source.. but, i am talking specifically about Albair's book that is different because i know how he researches and how he gets to his conclusions...
Visiting the monastery looking for manuscripts and gems of books and consulting authorities and sometimes Bishops that is the process he goes through... Plus when something is wright no one objects when there is disagreement People ought to talk and discuss as this thread informed everyone with of a change a lot of people were not aware of.
posted on Apr 12, 2010 - 02:18 AM
Ya ostaz Maher,
"no one objects" but also, "no one ACCEPTS." it's the way it is. only a hand-full of people might do, but not much. they just say 3adeha, and like nothing happened.
About this thread, you're talking about this thread as it is a source.....nope, not at all...not the whole forum or even the site even.....not even the WHOLE INTERNET NETWORK world wide.....with all due respect to all admins of sites (myself being one on another important site). Words typed anywhere are not worth anything except if they are printed on paper....and whatever is printed on paper better be right because that will stick FOREVER. And i know that for a fact.
posted on Apr 12, 2010 - 02:39 AM
From abahoor:Ya ostaz Maher,
"no one objects" but also, "no one ACCEPTS." it's the way it is. only a hand-full of people might do, but not much. they just say 3adeha, and like nothing happened.
About this thread, you're talking about this thread as it is a source.....nope, not at all...not the whole forum or even the site even.....not even the WHOLE INTERNET NETWORK world wide.....
The do not object column and no one accept column are people that this type of discussion to them DOES NOT MEAN MUCHsince their information in this area is limited meaning they are followers to leaders who know and discuss and that is the way it has been forever.
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