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posted on Feb 21, 2010 - 05:26 PM
I attended a baptism today and when it came to the Gospel Response, I said, "Je Penyot," in the Sunday Lenten tune. Is that correct? For some reason I started doubting myself and thought I should have said an Annual Gospel Response. I've always been under the impression that all church services (including baptisms and weddings etc) follow the current church season's hymns and tunes (eg Lenten, Kiahk etc). What does everyone think?
posted on Mar 03, 2010 - 12:04 PM
Dear Mechaiel, and jydeacon,
I actually disagree. I think baptism service should be like Laqan; the latter doesn't change with the season - strictly correctly speaking it should always be annual even on Epiphany day. Please note that such services, are services in their own right, consequently with their specific rites. They are not some sets of hymns that fit any tune (if you understand what I mean). For example, Gregorian liturgy tunes do not change even if for some reason (strictly correctly speaking wrongly) said on days other than joyful. Basilian liturgy the same (and here I am talking about the service from the start of anaphora). I hope this is clear, and not leading to more confusion.
oujai qen `P[C
posted on Mar 03, 2010 - 05:56 PM
Thanks for your replies.
Jydeacon, I agree that marriages are not done during fasts but often, they are prayed during Annual days (eg between Feast of Wedding at Cana - 13 Tobah - and Jonah's Fast). This is common here in Australia because it is summertime. During such time it would make sense that Weddings are done in Annual tune, even though common practice is Festal tunes.
Ophadeece, I disagree. The Lakkan follows the Taqs of the day. In Epiphany, the Lakkan is Festal. In Muallem Albair's Deacon's Service book (2nd edition page 298) it states that the Festal Verses of the Cymbals are chanted, and at the end, the Festal Psalm 150 is chanted.
My opinion is that all church services and prayers (including weddings, baptisms, Prayer of ointment of the sick, Lakkans liturgies, etc) should follow the current church season's tune (eg Annual, Lenten, Festal etc).
I wonder what they do in Egypt on the Sixth Sunday of Lent, when people are accustomed to baptising their children?
posted on Mar 04, 2010 - 11:57 AM
Dear Mechaiel,
Thanks for your reply. I am afraid that in the last reply you are contradicting yourself; you are pointing out to jydeacon that wedding services are usually joyful even when they fall on annual days. Then you are telling me that you disagree as you don't believe these are special services. I take it that you haven't lived in Egypt for too long. Yes, we understand there are different practices in different places, and I appreciate that Albair's book is most up to date in terms of Synod's suggestions, but I have to be honest and say that some things I still disagree with - I don't think they are not well thought through.
Take funeral services for example - do you say them in annual tune? in Kiahkly tune? No; almost always edribian excepting the holy fifties (and not even other joyful ceremonials) to emphasise that the resurrection of our Lord is the ultimate goal of any other event in life. I hope you let me know your opinion...
oujai qen `P[C
posted on Mar 04, 2010 - 03:48 PM
You raise an interesting point, Ophadeece. I agree with you on the funeral issue but this leaves me confused. During the Holy 50 Days, do we say the mournful Pauline or not? I know we would chant "Ekhristos antesti" instead of "Ari pamev-ee" during funeral processions, but what about the gospel.. is it in Attribi or annual tune?
posted on Mar 04, 2010 - 05:05 PM
As Ophadeece has pointed out during the holy 50, the tune is entirely joyful even in funerals. So if this is the case, why wouldn't it follow suit in other aspects of services such as baptisms and such in other times of the year? Do you see what I am getting at?
In the case of a baptism, have you ever seen a SPECIFIC gospel response for that service only? If so then you say that regardless and it would be annual as mentioned. However, since i have not seen that it would follow for the day in my opinion, it would not make sense to say oniato in the middle of lent would it? A rule I generally follow is that if the rite has its own specific responses that are above the season, as in weddings the response is Nai etafhotpo, not oniato even in annual.(except during the holy 50) then you say that response regardless of season, if that makes sense?
The Laqqan is not a service, it is literally a liturgy(Known also as liturgy of the water) this is why it is always an annual tune as ophadeece pointed out(as a side note, the verses of the cymbals and responses are annual not joyful), just as the other liturgies do not change tunes no matter what day of the year it is. As far as the reconciliation prayer, I don't necessarily agree that this prayer also follows the day because it is in fact part of the the actual liturgy at this point in time. In the past the beginning was considered the anaphora.
posted on Mar 05, 2010 - 02:27 PM
The Lakkan prayer is not just a Liturgy. The Lakkan book describes that a "Midnight" Praise is done, then a Raising of Incense Prayer, then prophesies, then Liturgy of the Word (Pauline and Gospel), then the actual Liturgy of the Water. All these hymns need to be chanted in a specific seasonal tune (eg annual or festal etc). Of course from the Anaphora onwards, the tune is fixed (doesn't change according to season), until Psalm 150 which is chanted with the seasonal tune & response.
In my opinion, the Lakkan follows the taqs of the day. Epiphany Lakkan is festal while Apostles Lakkan is annual in tune.
posted on Mar 05, 2010 - 06:07 PM
I disagree, the laqqan does not follow the taqs of the day. Here, at least, I've never seen it done. So what of the laqqan during great thursday? Sing it with paschal tunes?? Of course not, the rite is actually that this is sung in an annual tune. You can look through each of the laqqan rites on the various feasts here http://tasbeha.org/hymn_library/view/1732 and all say the same thing. It is done with the annual tune.
posted on Mar 06, 2010 - 02:41 PM
No. www.tasbeha.org has mistakes. They do a really good service and I appreciate their efforts and use their website reguarly, but much of it needs revision. Look at the following link from the same website for the EPIPHANY Laqqan: http://tasbeha.org/hymn_library/view/2203
Here it starts by saying: "After morning PASCHA, the Clergy..." This is an obvious mistake. They have obviously just cut and paste the whole page from Great Thursday Laqqan to Epiphany Laqqan.
I still say that the Laqqan follows the taqs (rite) of the day. Epiphany Laqqan is festal (see Muallem Albair's book, which I have the utmost respect and trust for). The Apostles Lakkan is annual in tune (that's the taqs of the day = annual). The Great Thursday is a Lord Feast but it is in Holy Passion Week so its tune is annual. In the Great Thursday Mass, the Pauline and Psalm/Gospel are in annual not paschal tune, so the taqs of the feast is annual, so the laqqan is annual.
posted on Mar 06, 2010 - 06:42 PM
They copy and pasted it because it is the same rite(the pascha thing is simply a mistake) With all due respect to Albeir and the HCOC they should not be a primary source. They do a tremendous job and I use his book for reference as well, but Older texts say the laqqan is annual on the Epiphany, Great Thursday and for the Apostles. You can consider the Laqqan to be as if a completely separate thing done outside of the liturgy. These are the same prayers a priest prays on the water of the baptismal before a baptism. It should be annual in my opinion and from what I have been taught.
posted on Mar 06, 2010 - 09:45 PM
I completely agree with jydeacon here. Mechaiel, please note something - it is rather strange to say that the epiphany laqan service is festal, and psalm 150 annual. If anything, actually it should be the reverse. But, a big BUT, most cantors received the tradition that psalm 150 is annual, which should therefore apply to other hymns in the service. I know so many people get confused, but the correct rites is to say every thing in annual. That also goes for the baptism service in my opinion. However, I haven't researched what Gospel response should be used - I am sure there must be one, but people didn't pass it down, as in some books you find only one Kiahk acts response, and in some books two, although the strictly speaking correct rites is four - one for every Sunday. Hope this doesn't add to the confusion anyway...
oujai qen `P[C
posted on Mar 07, 2010 - 08:18 AM
First, Mechaiel, you were right...that link was wrong because whoever added that text did just copy and paste....and that's why that page is deleted 
. the reason this happened is that any tasbeha.org user can add a page and edit that specific on[/i].
jydeacon and ophadeece...the Laqqan rite DOES follow that rite of the day and not it's own rite. We only think that, and many knowledgeable deacons i know do, that it's annual because maybe, just maybe, that the 2 out of 3 laqqan we do in the year are annual...so we tend to generalize i guess. let's think; the apostles is annual as the fast's and feast's rite. Covenant Thursday is annual because it's the rite of the day...and that is so because annual is like the middle ground between festive ans sad (holy week); same reason we started doing the general funeral of palm sunday annual rather than sad if it was done directly after the liturgy. as for Theophany, it's a major feast...it's festive. it would be unfitting to go into annual tune and then festive again. this makes more sense considering the fact that the laqqan is done after matins, according to mFarag book. So you can't do tasbeha and matins festive, laqqan in annual, and then liturgy festive. now this is just my opinion.
The source: this is so in Anba Metaous book of rites. His grace confirms that the laqqan is done in festive tune on Theophany.
i dono about baptism thoo.... 
posted on Mar 07, 2010 - 05:01 PM
The reason I'm so persistent with my argument is this:
لا بد للخدمات الكنسية بكافة انواعها (بما فى ذلك الجنازات) أن تتبع الطقس الكنسى السائد
I have seen this Arabic statment in three references, with the exact same wording in each reference:
(1) Muallem Farag Abdelmessih's Deacon Service book. 6th ed. Introductory pages: page ii)
(2) Muallem Albair Mikhail's Deacon Service book. 2nd ed. Page 8.
(3) A photocopied page, which I've got at home, so I don't know the exact reference but I believe it is from a Deacon's Service book by Ibrahim Ayad Girgis. 1992. Page 13.
I would translate this Arabic statment as the following:
"All church services, of all types, including funerals, must follow the current church rite (at the time of the service)."
PS: Abahoor, thanks for your comment. I'm glad I'm not the only person with that opinion.
posted on Mar 07, 2010 - 08:47 PM
Abahoor with all due respect I disagree completely.
Look, we requested our wedding to take place in the morning, and it was Abib/July, and you know what? The rites of the wedding were all sung in ... yes you guessed it, joyful tune. Matins preceded in annual. And then Liturgy followed which was annual.
You know what? The same applies for laqan - you can never say it one thing on one day and another on another. Please note; laqan is a service in its own right. It has its own rites. Have you ever heard people singing psalm 150 in joyful during Laqan service? Even on Epiphany? The answer I believe is "no". With all due respect to Albair's book, Bshp Mattaos', and cantor Farag's, this is not the practice followed in Egypt. In fact, they don't have access to the former two, but even the latter is not used as a basis, as much as that of nahdet el kana2es.
Now this is interesting, because it says clearly in nahdet el kana2es that after the Liturgy finishes of Palm Sunday, the funeral service starts, and it doesn't even specify a time except that it starts after the Liturgy finishes. You know what's even more? Cantor Ibrahim, and cantor Wagdi (and I am sure others did as well) recorded the fourth Psalm in the annual tune. You know what's even more? We had a debate before in which at;woo`i stated some proof that vespers psalm of Palm Sunday are sung in annual.
Now, Mechaiel, with all due respect (again and again and again) this doesn't happen. Funeral service is done in the edribian style except in the holy fifties.
People, let's hope we can research the reliable sources, and not any rites book - there has been many of them recently, and some follow the practice they believe it is right, rather than researching well enough.
oujai qen `P[C
posted on Mar 07, 2010 - 11:16 PM
I agree with ophadeece, with basically all he said. The only thing I disagree with is that baptisms since(at least here in the US I don't know other practices) is never done unless there will be liturgy after. Maybe this is because it doesn't make sense to baptize someone and make them wait to take communion another day but I believe none the less that in the case of baptisms it should follow the day.
However, back to Laqqan of Epiphany, as ophedeece said, it doesn't make sense. Here we do the Laqqan before Matins even(does it make a difference when its done?). So its as if its a separate service. And as I've said before, these are the same prayers the priest does on the baptismal water before a baptism. It is in fact a Liturgy, so its tunes do not change. The tunes of the 3 liturgies never change no matter what day of the year it is, so why would this liturgy change?
Think of weddings, are they not always joyful? Of course they are! It is a joyous occasion and a joyous rite. If the quote you put up Mechail, is correct, then weddings should be annual during annual days. But I have never been to a wedding without joyous rites. Even so, as a joyous rite it has its own hymns. Tishori is said, not taishori(even when the wedding is not on a fasting day). Nai Etafhotpo is said all year long(except during the Holy 50). Not anything else. It doesn't make sense to say that every single service follows the rite of the day.
posted on Mar 08, 2010 - 02:18 AM
From ophadeece:Abahoor with all due respect I disagree completely.
Look, we requested our wedding to take place in the morning, and it was Abib/July, and you know what? The rites of the wedding were all sung in ... yes you guessed it, joyful tune. Matins preceded in annual. And then Liturgy followed which was annual.
You know what? The same applies for laqan - you can never say it one thing on one day and another on another. Please note; laqan is a service in its own right. It has its own rites. Have you ever heard people singing psalm 150 in joyful during Laqan service? Even on Epiphany? The answer I believe is "no". With all due respect to Albair's book, Bshp Mattaos', and cantor Farag's, this is not the practice followed in Egypt. In fact, they don't have access to the former two, but even the latter is not used as a basis, as much as that of nahdet el kana2es.
Now this is interesting, because it says clearly in nahdet el kana2es that after the Liturgy finishes of Palm Sunday, the funeral service starts, and it doesn't even specify a time except that it starts after the Liturgy finishes. You know what's even more? Cantor Ibrahim, and cantor Wagdi (and I am sure others did as well) recorded the fourth Psalm in the annual tune. You know what's even more? We had a debate before in which at;woo`i stated some proof that vespers psalm of Palm Sunday are sung in annual.
Now, Mechaiel, with all due respect (again and again and again) this doesn't happen. Funeral service is done in the edribian style except in the holy fifties.
People, let's hope we can research the reliable sources, and not any rites book - there has been many of them recently, and some follow the practice they believe it is right, rather than researching well enough.
oujai qen `P[C
actually weddings are always festive. i only once did a wedding in its right timing, after matins and before liturgy. i know we did it festive but i can't remember what we did after. don't worry, i just found out today that another friend i have is getting married and he's gonna have his wedding this way....but it'll be on the fifties.....so festive anyway.
posted on Mar 08, 2010 - 03:58 AM
Funerals are always mournful (except during the Holy 50 days).
Weddings are always joyful (they're not to be done during any fasting days anyway).
I agree with the above two, but I'm still not convinced about
Baptisms and the Laqqan prayers.
Firstly, The Deacon's Service (by Nahdet el-kanaes) doesn't say anything about the Epiphany Laqqan. Next, the late Muallem Farag was an instructor at the Didymus Institute and Theological College, and recorded with the Higher Institute of Coptic Studies, so he is definitely authoritative.
Further, the Epiphany Laqqan book (2nd ed, 2005 by Fr Markos Hanna, California) says on page ii:
'After concluding the veneration, the priests, the deacons and the singers more to the place of the Lakane, with lit candles to begin the midnight praise as follow: "Arise O children of the Light" is sung, the first two verses according to their known tune, then the rest are recited without tune. Then the praise is sung over the water IN THE CUSTOM OF THE MAJOR FEASTS OF THE LORD.'
(تقرأ التسبحة على الماء كترتيب الأعياد السيدية الكبرى)
So if the tasbeha of the Laqqan is festive, why would the Laqqan itself be annual?
Also, on page 34 of the same book, it says, "The Gospel response in the FESTAL tune."
Ophadeece, don't get me wrong. I've seen a lot of conflicting information in different hymn books so I'm just trying to find out the best way to adopt in my own practice. Common practice is never a reliable indicator of what should be done, so I've referenced my arguments. Please let me know what your references are in relation to the Laqqan issue.
posted on Mar 08, 2010 - 05:52 PM
Dear Mechaiel,
I am so pleased that I am conversing with me (or rather the opposite, that you are STILL conversing with me), and you actually are doing much research into this issue to get to the right principles for correct practices. I know this can be very hard, but I have to be honest and say that my sole source is deacons' service book of nahdet el kana2es. Having said that, I do believe that people in the diaspora are lost when it comes to the practices carried out by churches in Egypt, and that is mainly due to the lack of resources, and the conflicting messages as you said. But I have lived in Egypt for 28 years, a couple of which I have been a deacon, and so my understanding stems mainly from experience, and as I said "nahdet el kana2es". My impression right now is that things are not well thought through and therefore we get more and more confused with practices and rites. Maybe it has to do with Alexandria library having been burnt down by muslims in their occupation to Egypt, and we may never be able to retrieve the original teachings of the church, but that doesn't mean that we need more books to tell us differen things. So in the end I can say that I am sticking to my opinion as I believe it is not too difficult to discern from other practices (talking especially of those in Egypt churches), and for me this makes sense. Thanks anyway for keeping an open mind for my views anyway.
ere V] `cmou eron tyren
oujai qen `P[C
posted on Mar 09, 2010 - 04:16 PM
Well, I'm glad that we had a chance to have a good discussion about this. Ophadeece, I respect your experience. I think if we keep having discussions like this, then after some time, all these matters will eventually be resolved and the rites will be unified across all Coptic churches. For now, does anyone have a live recording (audio or video) of Muallem Ibrahim Ayad in the Epiphany Laqqan at the cathedral?
I guess it doesn't have to be Muallem Ibrahim. Another reliable source, such as Muallem Gad Lewis, would also be helpful.
posted on Mar 09, 2010 - 05:31 PM
From Mechaiel:Well, I'm glad that we had a chance to have a good discussion about this. Ophadeece, I respect your experience. I think if we keep having discussions like this, then after some time, all these matters will eventually be resolved and the rites will be unified across all Coptic churches. For now, does anyone have a live recording (audio or video) of Muallem Ibrahim Ayad in the Epiphany Laqqan at the cathedral?
I guess it doesn't have to be Muallem Ibrahim. Another reliable source, such as Muallem Gad Lewis, would also be helpful.
MIbrahim doesn't pray Epiphany in the Cathedral. He prays with HH in Alexandria .... or sometimes Anba Bishoy's Monastery.
posted on Apr 11, 2010 - 05:29 PM
From Mechaiel:The reason I'm so persistent with my argument is this:
لا بد للخدمات الكنسية بكافة انواعها (بما فى ذلك الجنازات) أن تتبع الطقس الكنسى السائد
I would translate this Arabic statment as the following:
"All church services, of all types, including funerals, must follow the current church rite (at the time of the service)."
.
I thank everyone who has has replied. I would really like to hear from Muallem Albair about this subject.
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