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m_a_r_o

posted on Feb 20, 2010 - 07:20 AM

Hello,

بينما يتصارع اللاهوتيون فى خلافاتهم ، يتسلل البسطاء إلى الملكوت ببساطتهم

I know it seems scary for me to start off things in arabic, so here is my attempt at translating the quote above.

Whilst the theologians struggle in their differences, the simple sneak into the Kingdom in their simplicity. (H.H.Pope Shenouda III)

I don't really have much to add to these words, I just want to hear your opinion about this because I am currently feeling this way.

Much in need of your prayers.

Joined: Dec 18, 2005 | Posts: 149
Location: winTerpeg.. ManiSnowba

Ranya+++

posted on Feb 20, 2010 - 06:06 PM

Hi m_a_r_o sister:

I'm glad you started this thread. I'm sure you did a good job translating the Arabic into English.

Whilst the theologians struggle in their differences, the simple sneak into the Kingdom in their simplicity. (H.H.Pope Shenouda III)

This is very true. Our Lord set that example for us to follow, but I don't think we always follow our Lord's examples. Our Lord is simple. He was born in a manger. He is humble, sensitive and compassionate. He has all the knowledge in the world, but He doesn't use it against others.

He wants us to have innocence, but I just feel like our world has lost this simplicity and has become very complicated.

About theologians struggling between their differences, well it's true. But there is a difference between having knowledge and having love.

Love, Superior to Gifts
Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.

And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.

Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away (1 Corinthians 13:1-8).

I don't really have much to add to these words, I just want to hear your opinion about this because I am currently feeling this way.

Much in need of your prayers.

I think the issue of theology can get a little tricky because sometimes theologians are attempting to fully comprehend God. Well, that's just not possible.

God doesn't want us arguing about Him. He wants us to focus on Him and LOVE HIM. It can't get any simpler than that.

Thanks again for your simple topic.

Take care and God Bless,

+ + +

Joined: Jul 30, 2005 | Posts: 88

m_a_r_o

posted on Feb 21, 2010 - 02:45 AM

Hello Ranya,

I think I agree with you on the idea that sometimes theologians try to understand God which is impossible. Personally, I started studying at the Seminary, and the more I learnt, the more I discovered that I know nothing and that it is IMPOSSIBLE to know everything.

May be "simple theology" : understanding that we can not understand all things is best.

Anyone have any other thoughts?

Joined: Dec 18, 2005 | Posts: 149
Location: winTerpeg.. ManiSnowba

CopticSoldier

posted on Mar 04, 2010 - 07:38 AM

I like this thread.

I did a thesis on Simplicity a few years ago for my theology course as a critique of a text written by St. Philoxenus on the subject.

He is a little different from some of the other monastic writters I have seen because he starts from the perspective of inner virtues like faith and simplicity rather than practical virtues like obedience and patience.

His texts on faith and simplicity are wonderful if you have the time and can brave the old English of the translation:

Faith:
Part 1
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/pearse/morefat ... urse02.htm
Part 2
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/pearse/morefat ... urse03.htm

Simplicity
Part 1
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/pearse/morefat ... urse04.htm
Part 2
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/pearse/morefat ... urse05.htm

God bless,

CS

Joined: Jan 25, 2004 | Posts: 828
Location: Melbourne, Australia.

Truth.Seeker

posted on Mar 04, 2010 - 02:26 PM

[x]I definitely agree that some people who have no business in theology dable in theology too much for their or anyone else's good. I'd say that those people are the ones trying to know more about God than they should.

[y]On the other hand, a lot of theologians do know more about God - because He has revealed more to them.

... then there is us. The simple might slip quietly into Paradise, but their reception might also be quieter than [y].

[x] might not even make it, depending on how wrong they were.

Joined: Feb 25, 2008 | Posts: 956

Biboboy

posted on Mar 05, 2010 - 05:27 AM

Arius was simple.

Athanasius was a theologian.

Who entered the Kingdom?

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High in the heavens"
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Truth.Seeker

posted on Mar 05, 2010 - 05:31 AM

I wouldn't think that Arius was simple; I'd say he was complex in his stupidity.

Joined: Feb 25, 2008 | Posts: 956

CopticSoldier

posted on Mar 05, 2010 - 12:27 PM

Hi Guys,

The matter you're debating is prone to confused terminology, the word simplicity can mean a few things.

Sometimes the word simplicity sometimes means being of lesser intelligence but this is not always what is meant by the Fathers or in the Bible when we speak about simplicity. Often when they speak about simplicity as a virtue they really mean 'intellectual purity' and while its found in people who aren't great intellectuals, this isn't always the case!

You must spend some time reading the work by St Philoxenus, its very enlightening!

The point of his work is that simplicity left me with some prominent lingering points:

- Simplicity is about understanding that God is beyond comprehension and that knowledge of him is not the product of human intellectual enquiry or investigation rather it is a question of revelation a person will know more if more is revealed to them
- The result of this is that a simple person has acceptance that he need not try to work out God for himself because no degree of intelligence is enough to assume one can discover or comprehend God for Himself
-Experiences of God are very powerful, far more powerful that our ability to comprehend or describe Him no matter how intelligent or sophisticated we are
- Simplicity is not something related to intellectual capacity per se, it is about the absence of evil

If we look at the story of St Paul the Simple in Palladius's Lausiac History, we'll find that he is remarkably discerning for someone who is not overly blessed intellectually!

Simple people (in the intellectual sense) have knowledge of God too because true knowledge of God is about faith and experience not just intellectual creeds - as is written in the beatitude "blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God"!

God bless,

CS

Joined: Jan 25, 2004 | Posts: 828
Location: Melbourne, Australia.

Truth.Seeker

posted on Mar 06, 2010 - 03:09 PM

Good stuff CS, I like your post.

Joined: Feb 25, 2008 | Posts: 956

lowlyman

posted on Mar 09, 2010 - 06:55 PM

CS,

Did you also mean to quote:' Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven"?

poor in spirit == simple?
From CopticSoldier:Hi Guys,

The matter you're debating is prone to confused terminology, the word simplicity can mean a few things.

Sometimes the word simplicity sometimes means being of lesser intelligence but this is not always what is meant by the Fathers or in the Bible when we speak about simplicity. Often when they speak about simplicity as a virtue they really mean 'intellectual purity' and while its found in people who aren't great intellectuals, this isn't always the case!

You must spend some time reading the work by St Philoxenus, its very enlightening!

The point of his work is that simplicity left me with some prominent lingering points:

- Simplicity is about understanding that God is beyond comprehension and that knowledge of him is not the product of human intellectual enquiry or investigation rather it is a question of revelation a person will know more if more is revealed to them
- The result of this is that a simple person has acceptance that he need not try to work out God for himself because no degree of intelligence is enough to assume one can discover or comprehend God for Himself
-Experiences of God are very powerful, far more powerful that our ability to comprehend or describe Him no matter how intelligent or sophisticated we are
- Simplicity is not something related to intellectual capacity per se, it is about the absence of evil

If we look at the story of St Paul the Simple in Palladius's Lausiac History, we'll find that he is remarkably discerning for someone who is not overly blessed intellectually!

Simple people (in the intellectual sense) have knowledge of God too because true knowledge of God is about faith and experience not just intellectual creeds - as is written in the beatitude "blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God"!

God bless,

CS

Joined: Apr 04, 2006 | Posts: 288

CopticSoldier

posted on Mar 10, 2010 - 01:45 AM

From lowlyman:CS,

Did you also mean to quote:' Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven"?

poor in spirit == simple?


Hi Lowlyman,

Not in this case, I was paraphrasing the patristic commentary done by St Gregory of Nyssa who equates chastity and innocence with knowledge of God in his commentaries on the beatitudes and his tretise on virginity.

I think poor in spirit is more a reference to contrition/humility/repentace and the attitude of a servant - but this is me speaking now not St Gregory. I will go back to his commentary and let you know what he says.

God bless,

CS

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lowlyman

posted on Mar 12, 2010 - 07:29 PM

CS,
what you wrote makes sense. Thanks
From CopticSoldier:From lowlyman:CS,

Did you also mean to quote:' Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven"?

poor in spirit == simple?


Hi Lowlyman,

Not in this case, I was paraphrasing the patristic commentary done by St Gregory of Nyssa who equates chastity and innocence with knowledge of God in his commentaries on the beatitudes and his tretise on virginity.

I think poor in spirit is more a reference to contrition/humility/repentace and the attitude of a servant - but this is me speaking now not St Gregory. I will go back to his commentary and let you know what he says.

God bless,

CS

Joined: Apr 04, 2006 | Posts: 288

asinner

posted on Mar 13, 2010 - 07:55 PM

If you are a theologian, you will pray truly. And if you pray truly, you are a theologian.-Evagrios the Solitary
Theologians seek to know and understand christ. For this, they need knowledge which only comes from asking and praying to God. they need understanding which as david said begins with the fear of God. Therefore, a good theologian must pray and understand. T realm of theology is good within the realm of prayer. Otherwise, it could become a stumbling block in which one chases after their own wisdom.
By the same token, theology is important to our religion. We are a church of theology. We have had so many doctors of faith in our church, and it is undeniable that they have upheld our church with the grace of God. "Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have." (1 peter 3:15) Therfore, theology is evidently very important,yet we should not be like the hypocritic pharisees whom Jesus rebuked saying, "You should have practiced the latter without leaving the former undone". (luke 11:42)
Let us all strive to our full potential of knowledge of God within his grace, not neglecting the simplicity and faith which Jesus so loving expects from us.

In XC
-sinner

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