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Why we cannot unite with protestantism.

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eluzai

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posted on Feb 15, 2010 - 06:30 AM

I would like to apologize for the length. This is actually part of the writing I am going, so it is not complete as of yet, and remember I am not attacking anyone I am merely pointing something out to try and help others realize the dangers of protestantism.


Protestantism rejects the sacraments, or the idea of them being sacred, of the one holy apostolic church of God. It is difficult to say which ones believe what because there are 30,000+ denominations, so generally speaking most of them believe in marriage, baptism, the bible some believe in communion, most not believing it to be the body and blood of Christ, but a mere “symbol”. This is very important to point out to those who insist on mixing Protestantism with Orthodoxy. Protestants not only reject the sacraments but the Divine Liturgy, which is not man made but given to man by God, whom is being worshipped in heaven at all times and in every hour through liturgical means. Revelation chapter eight speaks of the Divine Liturgy taking place in heaven. Therefore Liturgical worship, as understood in Orthodoxy, is a means to achieve heaven on earth upon which we receive the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ.
If the protestants reject liturgical worship, as well as the sacraments how does this make them Christian? While their earlier protestant denominations have structured worship, they still lack a major component, apostolic succession which would make a church valid. It was argued against me that the Anglican is exactly like the Orthodox church, I believe it to be closer to that of Catholicism, to which I responded that these Anglicans/Episcopalians ordain homosexual priests and bishops, so in their liberal ideology and theology they resemble Protestantism, while in their church setting the resemble the Catholic church.
In their rejection of the holy sacraments, Divine Liturgy, and Orthodox doctrine, are they not denying God? They deny the sacraments, in which lay salvation through the body and blood of Christ, the Divine Liturgy, which is heavenly and from God Himself. They deny the Orthodox doctrine which is to deny the church. They church is the body of Christ on earth, how can you reject it without rejecting Christ? The word Orthodox itself means “right doctrine” or “correct or true worship” so if we believe that anyone that believes in Christ is Christian we should remove the title Orthodox.
This brings us to another point. What is a Christian? Is a Christian anyone that believes in Christ? This is the opinion shared by many, including many in our own Holy Church. This would be like saying, I am a police officer because I have a gun. No you have power because you have a gun but you have not been granted authority from the powers that be to use that gun lawfully. This is the same as Protestantism. They still have power in that they can use the name of Christ, they can form their own denominations, but do they have the authority on which to act in this way? Mt. 7:21 demonstrates this clearly “Not everyone who says to me, Lord Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name? And then I will declare to them, I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.” Notice Christ says “ you who practice lawlessness.” We know Christ is speaking to people that clearly think they are Christians, so when Christ tells them they have practiced lawlessness, it clearly means those who practiced outside of the Church He speaks of in Mt 16:18.
In 2 Tim 4:3 St Paul says: “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.” St Paul is very clear that in the latter times many will fall away from the faith, believing in what they want. Hearing what they want to hear. Notice he is not specific as to the group of people, but by using “they” is he not generalizing? He uses this word because it is such a large number of people with no specific belief.
St Paul is important for many reasons and one of them is that he continually warns of falling away. In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 St Paul warns: “Let no one deceive you by any means; for that day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshipped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.” An amazing verse that warns us of a coming apostasy or falling away. If indeed anyone who believes in Christ is considered a Christian then the falling away has not yet taken place, and to be quite honest will never happen, atleast using the logic that anyone that believes in Christ is Christian.
What can we make of this? Has the apostasy happened or is it taking place? And does St Paul consider these that fall away as Christian? The apostasy started with Rome, who throughout Christian history has had a God complex seeking power over salvation and faith in Christ. As a result of of their abuses, and pridefully leaving the grace of the Holy Spirit, God allowed their foundation to be shaken by the so called “reformation”. This is the point where the apostasy became much more evident. This act of rebellion has led to over 30,000 denominations each differing from one another all unrecognizable compared to the Orthodox church, in faith and in doctrine. 1 Corinthians 14:33 “ For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.” Clearly proof that God did not inspire the protestant movement.
This is what St Paul is speaking of. Why would he warn us continually if these people are part of the Body of Christ? What is the sense in that, unless of course St Paul did not believe them to be Christian, and clearly does not view this as an act of God. God permitted it yes of course, but the invention of Protestantism is inspired by our adversary the devil. It is man made and offers no hope of salvation. St Paul again warns us, with much stronger language, in 1 Tim 4 saying: “ Now the spirit expressly says that in the latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.”
This further reinforces the argument that Protestants are not Christian. With all these denominations varying in doctrine how could God possibly be telling all of them different things? This is trickery and that is an attribute of the devil not of God. Now notice St Paul says “depart from the faith” which would clearly be Martin Luther, who is credited with starting the fire of Protestantism. Luther chose of his own accord to leave the Catholic faith, and instead of seeking out the Orthodox he decided to create his own church with doctrines vastly different than that of ours and Rome. Did Luther know of Orthodoxy? As a priest-monk I find it hard to believe he didn’t. Not long before the “reformation” St. Mark of Ephesus admonished the Roman church at the council of Florence, so yes Martin Luther most definetly knew of Orthodoxy, but he clearly gave heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons.
Martin Luther, as well as many other early protestants, created doctrines out of thin air. Sola Scriptura is the idea that the bible is above the church in authority, as if Gods word is about His body. Martin Luther believed that anyone can interpret the bible for themselves, probably not realizing that this belief would actually cause more chaos and confusion than he expected. Sola Fide is the belief that you only need faith to be saved, despite what is writtin in the book of St James, Martin Luther believed his word above Holy Scripture. This actually led him to remove the book from the original canon referring to it as “the epistle of straw”. He did however add it back to the canon later.
These doctrines are only two of many heretical doctrines created by men that are in direct conflic with the scriptures and Orthodoxy. To accept Protestantism as Christian that would mean we would have to accept their doctrines as truth, making our faith relative and our traditions and sacraments unnecessary. 2 Pet. 2:20 “ Knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.” Yet Luther would have us believe the exact opposite, anyone can interpret the holy Scripture according to him, this shows that Sola Scriptura, which every protestant believes, is in direct conflict with Scripture.
2 Pet 2:18-22 Shows a very clear picture of what is to happen in these apostate denominations. We will read from 2:18-19 which says: “ For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped from those who live in error. While they promise liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage.” If you have ever turned on a televison you have probably seen some televangelist, or even a typical mainstream protestant church service. What I find disturbing is that many of them preach a feel good gospel, or a prosperity gospel. Both of which should be considered doctrines of demons, just plain heretical.
This verse in 2 Peter describes Protestantism and its apostasy with great accuracy. When many of them preach they preach a message that makes people feel good, or that God is there to serve you because you believe in Christ. These are swelling words of emptiness. I have even heard sermons by Roman Catholic priests that were directed and motivating the people to live a better life in the material sense. This is further evidenced in St Paul’s letter to the Romans in which St Paul states: “ Now I urge you brethren, not those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them. For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple.” Again we are warned that these false teachers or apostates will use smooth words and flatter us. This kind of heresy exists within Protestantism, actually it is quite prevalent in Protestantism. St Paul also says that they do not serve Christ, meaning they are not Christian. Since Protestantism and Roman Catholicism have fallen away, and that protestant sermons usually consist of what St Paul warns us of in his letter to the Romans.
I am dismayed that I see so many of our Orthodox brothers and sisters believing there is no difference between us and them. They have fallen into this heresy of liberalism, which seeks to make all things relative. This ecumenical movement aims to unite all churches based on their belief in Christ, whom we all share no common opinion. This is just one of the many aspects needed for the antichrist’s arrival. Globalization. The unification of the political, financial, and religious is a necessity for the antichrist, to make it easier for him to consolidate his power as the world ruler. Because we are giving up the truth slowly, in favor of unity, there will be very little Orthodox left in the end, many being deceived by the antichrist and his tricks.


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eluzai

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Truth.Seeker

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posted on Feb 15, 2010 - 07:41 AM

I just scrolled down, saw that you said financial globalization is a precursor to the antichrist and I then had a strong urge to not scroll back up and read anything else.

Take it easy.

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eluzai

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posted on Feb 15, 2010 - 02:33 PM

Truth Seeker,
I apologize that I came off as a bit crazy. The reason I came to this conclusion is because without unity, or atleast partial unity or even unity in the making within these sectors, it would be difficult to consolidate power quickly. This could very well be wrong, but for what other reason would there be a consensus on unity, in every aspect, political, economical, religious etc. Christ tells us to watch so we must watch. I am not saying I am a prophet or am absolutely correct about anything. Hopefully you do read and like the rest, sorry for turning you off by saying that.

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Truth.Seeker

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posted on Feb 15, 2010 - 07:55 PM

The signs preceding the antichrist are mentioned in the Gospels, Epistles, and Revelations, and there is a lot of literature on it. For eg, go to HE Metropolitan Bishoy's website and search for his document on this. Maybe somebody will tweet that he saw a wonder and others will believe him. Not a few Protestants attribute St. Mary's apparitions to the devil, quoting St. Paul. We can either have a who-follows-the-devil more contest, or we can get our point across less inflammatorily.

You say that Protestants are not even Christian, then you say St. Paul said do not keep company with a brother that ... Well, if they're not even Christian, then they're not really our brothers, so, wouldn't that mean it's ok to keep company with them?

I don't see the Coptic Church running after Protestants to unite with them at all costs. We are uncompromising, but we do it in a non-inflammatory way. And believe me, there are probably a lot of people laughing at my post, because when I'm the one saying to take it easy, that means there is a real problem! Smile

You make good points throughout, but they're masked by unnecessary attacks, in my opinion. You can take my opinion for what it's worth.

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eluzai

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posted on Feb 16, 2010 - 03:34 PM

Truthseeker,
Thank you so much, I do value your opinion very much. Thank you also for taking time to discuss this. My intention is not to be inflammatory towards protestants, but to try and share my knowledge with people on why there should be no unity with protestantism. Pope Shenouda was the head of the WCC for many years. Our Orthodox Bishops and priests pray with them, I find this unacceptable. Again this is not based on personal feelings, my parents are protestant and my brother a communist. But rather what scriptures say as well as the early church fathers say. I allude to St John Chrysostoms "Against the Jews" or "Discourses against judaizing Christians" so much because it is clear by this glorious Saints mouth that mixing Theology is bad.
I do study eschatology quite a bit, definetly my favorite subject and am nowhere near an expert on it.You are correct there are many signs mentioned in the NT, and there are many signs that probably arent, or are hinted at but not specifically pointed out. For instance the mark of the beast, how is the antichrist going to force everyone in the world to take the mark unless he has control over all the world political systems and the world economic systems? Well they have to be unified. What of religion? Well to water it down and make it weak and relative then they must unite on false pretense, like "we all believe in Christ" whom we share no common opinion.
In Rev 12:15-16 we read about the dragon who sought to kill the women and a flood of water came from his mouth to drown the woman, yet the earth opened up swallowing the water and saving the woman. St Andrew of Caesarea explains that this water is a multitude of temptation, demons and heresy. And this woman not only refers to Our Holy Mother St Mary, but to the Church she gave birth to. It is a double entendre. Just as God opened the earth to swallow Korah and his followers for there heresy, so too will He do the same in the end to save the church.

Hopefully this helps Truthseeker.

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Truth.Seeker

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posted on Feb 17, 2010 - 05:32 AM

The fact remains: the Coptic Church has not gotten any closer to Protestantism. So, your main premise does not exist. The Coptic Church is more vocally speaking out against Protestantism today than it ever has during Protestantism's presence in Egypt (since the 19th century).

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eluzai

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posted on Feb 18, 2010 - 06:06 AM

From Truth.Seeker:The fact remains: the Coptic Church has not gotten any closer to Protestantism. So, your main premise does not exist. The Coptic Church is more vocally speaking out against Protestantism today than it ever has during Protestantism's presence in Egypt (since the 19th century).

Truthseeker, perhaps you could explain why Pope Shenouda has been head of the WCC, a protestant organization, that on its own website states its goal of uniting all churches into one church. Perhaps you could explain why our Pope and Bishops pray with protestants. Your defense has no premise, it holds no water simply because you are not aware of these very facts.


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eluzai

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Truth.Seeker

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posted on Feb 18, 2010 - 02:05 PM

The goal of the WCC is to unite all churches - does it say it is to unite all churches under <i>Protestantism</i>? No. Enough said. The whole world now knows we are Miaphysite, not Monophysite. That is thanks to our involvement in various dialogues. You do not know how much I know, I recommend you don't venture to guess. St. Paul prayed next to pagans, now what? Smile It's not like we went and got Anglicans to pray our Liturgy.

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eluzai

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posted on Feb 19, 2010 - 06:45 AM

Truthseeker,
I am not sure as to why so much hostility, I dont recall assuming to know how much you know or dont know. I never said anything about the WCC trying to unite the world under protestantism, I think that is a rather large leap in logic on your part. What I clearly stated, had you read my first post, is to unite all into one single church based on the fact that we al believe in Christ. We all believe in Christ whom we share no common opinion is more like it. Their own website states this goal of unity. St Paul prayed next to pagans, not with them. The apostolic canons are very clear on this point, praying with heretics is a very big no no. Of course this boils down to the definition, are protestants heretics? In my opinion yes they are. It would be nice if you read the whole post as opposed to popping off at the mouth and shoving words down my throat that I never said. You clearly never even entertained the idea that any of this could possibly be correct, it just automatically isnt because it doesnt fit with your world view. The dream that Daniel interpeted is a great example of the age in which we live, the toes on that statue represent this last age, mixed of iron and clay. This age seeks to unite everyone under false pretense, uniting people and ideas that cannot be united. Uniting religions that cannot be united. Its quite simple, I suggest you get off your high horse, as you made it clear that you are smarter than me with that absurd comment in which you felt your ego was threatend, and open your eyes. Please dont just write stuff to start fights, or assume that I am attacking your intelligence. It is disgusting to see a Copt act in such a childish way.

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Truth.Seeker

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posted on Feb 20, 2010 - 06:14 AM

Who said I'm being hostile? Did the smiley face not give away my state of emotions?

You said: "Your defense has no premise, it holds no water simply because <b>you are not aware of these very facts.</b>"

NOW you say: "I dont recall assuming to know how much you know or dont know."

... OK. You assumed my knowledge of the WCC isn't all that much. You assumed wrong, the fact that I think your analysis is wrong does not mean I lack knowledge, it just means you lack logic.

You said that the WCC is trying to unite us all - and you used that as a negative premise to go off of. The only way that holds any logic is if the WCC is trying to unite us under Protestantism, because God knows, if the WCC is trying to unite us under Orthodoxy and you are throwing a fit, now that'd be disgusting. OR, maybe the Orthodox and Protestants got together and decided to unite under Catholicism ... perhaps you need to figure out your point before you start sharing it?

What is this praying you keep mentioning? Give me a quote, a video, an audio, a something. If Pope Shenouda gets up and says, "May Jesus Christ help us all find unity," and you have a problem with that - again, that would be something. At the very least, Pope Shenouda knows who Jesus Christ is, and any help from Christ is good (He would definitely only help everyone towards Orthodoxy because that is what is True). I'm all for unity - on Orthodox terms.

Let me boil it down for you:

1) Pope Shenouda and all of our Bishops are all for dialogue - and in that dialogue, we only want to clarify our point of view. If someone likes it, fine, if they don't, that's fine too. Why do you think we haven't united with the EO yet, when we have a theological agreement with them, ratified by our Holy Synod in 1990? They want us to unconditionally accept their four last councils. We refuse to do so.

2) With (1) in mind, how can you possibly think that our Church, which would not ease up on something like this to unite with the EO would light up on anything to appease Protestants?

__________

It seems like, since you don't think the WCC has Protestant goals, then you just don't want us to talk to Protestants for the sake of not talking to Protestants. That's ... nonsense.

In short, I don't like people like you childishly talking about impending doom.

P.S. I do think I am smarter than you - because you have said a lot of nonsense. Trust me, saying I'm smarter than nonsense isn't exactly egotistical.

And break up your paragraphs man, otherwise it just looks like you're rambling - not to say that you're not Smile.

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eluzai

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posted on Feb 20, 2010 - 04:13 PM

Fr. Peter Farrington (tasbeha.org) informed me that yes indeed the Pope and our Bishops pray with protestants. I dont think you realize how absurd your logic really is. Unity is ok and we can all agree as long as we are not united under protestantism. That is absolutely absurd. By accepting them as "Christian" we are validating their belief therefore making Orthodoxy relative and giving them no need, nor desire, to convert to the true Christian faith.

Seems like dialog has replace the word unity. And what is the purpose in being a member of the WCC who clearly seeks unity, to make one universal church, as they say? Based on this logic should I be a member of the Freemasons in order for them to better understand us and our position? Or how about being a member of the Church of Satan, in order to have dialog? The purpose of the WCC is to create one universal church, where we dont all have to agree but all accept one another as Christian and respect everyones beliefs, that is liberal hogwash. It definetly fits with the spirit of the age.

Here is a quote from St John Chrysostoms Discourses against Judaizing Christians:
"If any Roman soldier overseas is caught favoring the barbarians and the Persians, not only is he in danger but so also everyone who was aware of how this man felt and failed to make this fact known to the General. Since you are the army of Christ, be overly careful in searching to see if anyone favoring an alien faith has mingled among you, and make his presence known-not so that we may put him to death as those generals did, nor that we may punish him or take our vengeance upon him, but that we may free him from his error and ungodliness and make him entirely our own." St John Chrysostom " Against the Jews" Discourse I pt IV v.9


St John also refers to the Jews as dwelling places for demons, their synogogs whorehouses etc. Do you think he would be all for mixing religions? That is what is happening no matter if you want to believe it or not.

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Truth.Seeker

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posted on Feb 21, 2010 - 02:58 AM

First of all - thank you for breaking up your post.

"I dont think you realize how absurd your logic really is."

Well, that's an absurd statement - if I realized that my logic was absurd, why in the world would I hold to it? Smile I don't think you realize how little I care about how absurd YOU think my logic is.

You said that I am saying: "Unity is ok and we can all agree as long as we are not united under protestantism."

I said, in the post you were replying to is: "I'm all for unity - on Orthodox terms."

At this point, I think the main problem is your reading comprehension.

All of this falls on the definition of "Christian." If a Christian is someone who believes that Jesus is the Son of God, co-eternal with the Father and the Holy Spirit, Whose blood was necessary to be shed so that we can obtain forgiveness of sins, then most Protestants are "Christian." If a Christian is an Oriental Orthodox, then they would not be Christian. I like the former definition more. There are Church Fathers who didn't think Revelations should be part of the Bible - are they Christian or not Christian? I'd rather not engage in that game.

At the same time, I say that the Orthodox Mysteries are necessary for salvation - I doubt that'll make someone think Orthodoxy is relative.

You and I do not disagree on the substance of the issue - Orthodoxy is right, all else is wrong (with some more wrong than others - measured by how far they are from Orthodoxy). We have been part of the WCC for a while, the fact that you are starting to learn a lot about it now (this is a hunch: you're probably in college, just started reading up on this stuff, and you are wanting to stop all of us "liberal" folks from destroying everything), does not change the fact that DECADES later, we're as Orthodox as when we started.

You can ask anyone on this forum about how "liberal" I am - they'll have a good laugh.

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eluzai

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posted on Feb 21, 2010 - 06:42 AM

Well lets get some things straight. We do agree that Orthodoxy is right, and all other denominations are not. Being part of the WCC clearly will not ruin Orthodoxy overnight, but over time. This can already be seen in many Orthodox churches in america, where materialism and liberalism is rampant, and I do not recall referring to you as liberal. Embracing ecumenism would be embracing a liberal idea, which doesnt necessarily make you liberal.

You do however make some very wild assertions. Defining a Christian is simple. If they live the Orthodox spiritual life, then they are Christian. Because some early church fathers may have disagreed with Revelation does not mean they are not Christians, it means they are humans who are prone to error. If just believing in Christ, in the way you put it, makes a being a Christian, then the devil and his angels are Christian.

St John Chrysostom would not have stood for this "dialog" with other denominations. He refers to the jewish temples as "brothels" and "theaters", as well as "houses of demons". He admonished his people for mixing with them.

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Truth.Seeker

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posted on Feb 21, 2010 - 03:18 PM

Who exactly made eluzai the final arbiter of what mistakes are big enough to make someone not Christian and which ones are small enough to just make humans prone to error? To use the man you keep quoting as an example - St. Chrysostom was not in communion with Rome for much of his life; he never said the Church of Rome is not Christian because of it.

Jews are not a denomination - I don't know why you keep bringing them up. Last I checked, there's no Jewish church (such a thing doesn't exist) represented in the WCC.

The devil and his angels do not believe that His blood cleanses them from their sins (so, they are not Christians). They definitely do believe in Christ - St. James specifically said they believe in God.

James 2:19
You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

You didn't comment about my hunch, I was right ehh? Smile

P.S. you previously said "You clearly never even entertained the idea that any of this could possibly be correct, it just automatically isnt because it doesnt fit with your world view." A "world view" is something more than one liberal idea. Don't come now and tell me you didn't say I was liberal and that I am making leaps. It's not my problem that you don't pay attention to what you say.

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eluzai

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posted on Feb 22, 2010 - 06:13 AM

Truthseeker, this has now become an insult fest started by your condescending remarks towards me about being a "college student" eager to prove a point. As long as you keep interpreting things in the way that suits you, then you will always come to the conclusion that you are right. I made a comparison between what St John was doing and had said in his discourses, and what is happening now. Judaism is indeed a denomination, according to merriam-webster a denomination is: : a religious organization whose congregations are united in their adherence to its beliefs and practices. So judaism has several denominations, while they may disagree on many things they all adhere to OT law, atleast as closely as possible without having their temple at which to sacrafice. I in no way stated that they had anything to do with the WCC, merely making a comparison between the jews of St Johns time and the protestants of ours.

The fallen angels clearly know that Christs blood will not bring them salvation, for an angel that sins of its own accord cannot be saved. They do know that His blood saves, but it cannot possibly save a fallen angel so that argument is stupid.
And my point is still upheld that by your logic demons are Christians. Probably more Christian that protestants who create their own God to believe in. They put God under their feet while we willingly put ourselves under His. Please refrain from being so pompous, it shows your lack of respect and level of immaturity. If you would like to argue your point then lets do that. But please stop being so arrogant and condescending. Also stop manipulating the conversation and interpreting things to fit your argument simply because you lack the basic knowledge of argumentation.

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Truth.Seeker

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posted on Feb 23, 2010 - 02:24 PM

You're boring me - I'll leave it to third parties to conclude who lacks the basic knowledge of argumentation. You're insulted that I called you a college student, when you are a college student? OK.

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eluzai

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posted on Feb 23, 2010 - 05:29 PM

Sorry you feel that way Truthseeker but hopefully you will look at your posts and see how you completely take what I have said out of context, interpreting it in your own way. Its rather clear actually. I WAS a college student if that makes you happy.

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Truth.Seeker

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posted on Feb 24, 2010 - 05:21 AM

You said demons are more Christian than Protestants and you expect to be taken seriously.

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eluzai

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posted on Feb 24, 2010 - 08:42 AM

Actually James states this. The majority of protestants believe in Sola Fide, as well as Sola Scriptura, if not all protestants since they are the ones who founded it and what it is founded upon. In James 2:19 " You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror. How foolish! Can't you see that faith without good deeds is useless?" What better witness do I have to validate that statement? The devil and his angels are well aware of Christ, who He is and His power, they accept that He is God. Therefore does that not make them Christian? Atleast by protestant logic it does.

In protestant logic demons are much more Christian than protestants. They know how to gain salvation, even though they cannot receive it on account that they sinned of their own accord knowing full well God exists and being in His presence. So while they are unable to obtain salvation they know the way to it and this is why they try and stop us and impede our path. So because they have all this knowledge, which is much more than you and I let alone protestantism, wouldn't that make them Christian, again speaking in terms of protestant logic? It certainly seems as if it would make them more Christian, again using their logic.

This is just one of the many errors and heresies that exist within protestantism. For instance Montanism, condemned in the earlist of the church, even by St Polycarp, an apostolic father taught by St John. Pentecostalism is a modern day replica of montanism, almost a perfect match. That again is just one of many tricks the devil has recycled because we are not paying attention and are more preoccupied with nonsensical things as opposed to keeping our eyes open and watching. Thats just my opinion, I could be wrong.

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Truth.Seeker

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posted on Feb 27, 2010 - 03:33 PM

You're missing this part (which is so obvious that it doesn't need to be stated): for someone to be Christian they have to believe that THEIR own personal sins CAN be washed away by His blood.

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eluzai

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posted on Feb 28, 2010 - 05:12 AM

I do agree with that statement, I dont agree that I am "missing the point". The protestant man made doctrine of "Sola Fide" pretty much says it all. By faith alone is a heresy. Many protestants believe that when you confess this that you are saved, some of them without baptism, just mere confession. In James 2:19 he clearly states this "You say you have faith, for you believe there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this and they tremble in terror." Therefore the demons know that Christ is God, they accept it and confess it. What I am saying is that by Protestant logic, the devil and his angels are Christian.

This is probably why Luther, who invented "Sola Fide" tried very hard to get rid of the book of James, he actually did but was coaxed into putting it back in the canon. Still he referred to it as the epistle of straw. Because this doctrine directly conflicts with scripture and our very church it is heretical. Mostly likely Luther was influenced by the devil, as in his writings as a monk it is clear that he was falling into despair at his inability to achieve some sort of perfection, this and the abuses of the Catholic church led to his rebellion as well as igniting the liberal revolution, the enlightenment.

Hopefully this clears up any misunderstanding.

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Truth.Seeker

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posted on Feb 28, 2010 - 03:44 PM

No. Because Protestants also believe that for someone to be Christian they have to believe that their own personal sins can be washed away by His blood. The demons do not believe that their (the demons') sins can be washed away by His blood.

Now, the difference you focus on is correct. Protestants think it's much easier for their sins to be washed away than Orthodox think (the whole faith/works fun stuff). But even with Protestants' easier formula, they would not consider demons to be Christian.

Yes, Luther put the Epistle of James in the appendix of his translated Bible - now that's something, say Sola Scriptura then decide which Scriptura to go with and which isn't good enough; the technical term for it is that this is whack. He definitely did have a lot of psychological problems.

I'll give you this: broadly speaking, since Jesus said the devil was a liar from the beginning and he is the father of all lies, then anything that departs from the truth has a trace of the devil's work in it.

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eluzai

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posted on Feb 28, 2010 - 10:52 PM

We do agree on several things. Hopefully you will take my first post a little more serious, I assure you I am not speaking off the top of my head or out of spite or anything. Now we are speaking in broad terms, many protestants believe baptism is a mere symbol, as well as communion. Many of the early protestant churches did however believe in atleast some of the sacraments. I think you would be hard pressed to find many that believe they are actually sacred as we do. So we are kind of generalizing but do we have a choice? Not really, how can we pinpoint a universal belief or doctrine in 30,000+ denominations?

So I could be correct in saying that demons are more Christan that protestants. The demons recognize that baptism washes away sins, they know that theirs cannot be forgiven. So they know and understand, as well as believe in its power, but they are unable to attain salvation. Think of the many heresies that exist within the scope of protestantism, Montanism, Chilliasm, Arianism, Nestorianism etc. The demons do not believe these, although they did make them up, they know the truth. So we can disagree on this point as I think we both have valid arguments, but the main theme is that outside Orthodoxy there is no salvation.

That being said, what do you think of many of our priests, not sure about bishops, that say that protestants are Christian, without the full revelation of Christ. Can you have a half truth and still be true? If they are Christian and can attain salvation then lets all take the easy route, right? What are your thoughts on this?

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Truth.Seeker

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posted on Feb 28, 2010 - 11:52 PM

I am done with the demon talk, but let me just point this out to you: at the very least, Protestants THINK they are pleasing God; the demons KNOW they are at enmity with Him.

I just watched His Eminence Metropolitan Bishoy on an interview not too long ago, and he was asked if Protestants are Christian. He said they are Christian because they believe in the fundamentals of the faith (the stuff I mentioned earlier). He was then asked if they're going to go to hell. He said he's not there to judge who's going where. Then he went on to say that all we can say is that the Mysteries are necessary for salvation.

This is the same Metropolitan Bishoy who criticized priests who are passive and agree when Protestants say "we're all one." In other words, being Christian is necessary, but it is not sufficient. You seem to be equating a "Christian" with someone who will attain salvation. I assure you, if a Christian and a non-Christian live the same exact sinful life, the Christian's punishment will be harsher in the end. The only thing a Christian has, is the ability to repent. Now, Protestants are Christian, but they lack the Mysteries of repentance - herein lies the problem.

Let me put it this way: an Orthodox person can end up in hell just like anyone else. The fact that he believes confessing to a priest will wash away his sins won't do him any good if he doesn't do it.

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eluzai

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posted on Mar 04, 2010 - 07:11 PM

Again, believing in Christ does not make you Christian. Believing in Christ on your own terms clearly does not make you Christian. I have heard several liberal Orthodox Priests say that protestants are Christian but dont have the "full revelation" of Christ. WHAT!? Christ tells us in Rev 3:16 " So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit thee out of my mouth." This quite clearly demonstrates that not all Orthodox will attain salvation, and people who do not have "the full revelation of Christ" will not either, by Christs words not mine.

Also in 2 Thess 2:11 St Paul tells us that "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." Pretty clear if you ask me, and again I am not just singling out protestants. I do believe Orthodox will be judged much more severe.

Also in Mt 7:21 "Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord shall enter into the kingdom of Heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.Many will say to me in that day, Lord,Lord have we not prophesied in your name? Have we not cast out demons in your name? Have we not done many wonderful works in your name? And then I will profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you who practice lawlessness." Again pretty clear and not in too much need of explanation.

I have brought forth St Paul as my witness and our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Who else better to have for a witness? If you would like I can supply to you more for a witness on my part. In my opinion many Orthodox have lost their boldness for the sake of sparing peoples feelings, which I find terribly sad, for Christ Himself says He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth."Lk 11:23. The Church has always been viewed as the body of Christ on this earth, if someone be outside of it pracicing and believing of their own accord, they are not Christian.

In Numbers 16 we can read the story of Korah, who believed that anyone could be a priest. Moses pleaded with him to recant his statement. Needless to say, God gave them censers and they stood before the tabernacle to which God replied to them by opening the earth and swallowing them. Not only does this show the seriousness to which God takes the priesthood and worship, but that dissenters will be dealt with swiftly. People who believe of their own accord and not to the will of God are not Gods people.

This parallels the verse in Rev 12:15 in which the dragon opened his mouth and a flood poured out to swallow the woman and the earth opened up and swallowed the water. Church fathers such as St Andrew of Caesarea viewed this as a multitude of heresies, and the woman as the church, to which God opens the earth up to swallow them, so as to keep them from destroying the Church.

Hopefully bringing forth witnesses will strengthen the argument.

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