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Fortunatus

posted on Dec 30, 2009 - 03:55 AM

+Iryny nem `hmot,

I have a question to ask...where has spirituality gone? I know that this question probably could be interpreted as judgment right off the bat, but please try not to take it that way.

It seems like we have lots of debates about miracles, politics, extremism etc...but I worry sometimes we have turned into what we always say others have become.

I'm wondering if we all remember the point. So my question, I guess, is: what is the point [of everything]?

Once that's answered:

- How does that affect what I do?
- How do I get to or achieve "the point"?
- What does that mean in terms of rituals/rites, Sacraments etc...? What is their role in "the point" [of everything]?
- How does this affect how I interact with others?
- How does this affect how I view any event internal or external to my person?

Sorry, it's a loaded question, but I want to learn more about how we think, what we do and what we value.

Thanks, everyone.

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KidofKaras

posted on Jan 09, 2010 - 08:57 AM

Peace and Love Mena,


Where has spirituality gone....

It's truly a very interesting question that demands many answers. Fr. Seraphim Rose writes about many of the current issues in the world and contemporary issues.
Spirituality nowadays is buried in 21st century thinking and philosophy. It exists; however, it is coated with the ideals of the fads and fashion of the current day. Unfortunately, spirituality is replaced through the desire, or the increased desire for pleasure. Most advertising is done to affect the inner person- that the person needs to have whatever it is NOW. The inner man is becoming more temporal and is affected by the whims of the media.

To generalize about spirituality, is like speaking about the first state of man. We drifted away and began to lose the essence of prayer. Sin took root among us and we corrupt our First Nature as spoken about by St. Athanasius in, On the Incarnation


what is the point [of everything]?

The point of everything can be summed up to me in 3 ways: spiritual fulfillment, temporal satisfaction(for ourselves/for others), and at times both. Our calling as St. Paul said, is to decrease, and allow Christ to increase. We are called to be separate and apart from this world, consecrated



- How does that affect what I do?
Fulfilling our 'personal legend' as claimed by Paulo Coehlo is a personal and lustful idea in which we reach our potential on earth. Having a spiritual eye will definitely make my agenda here a simplistic one. In terms, of social activity and the "pursuit of happyness"Being in a spiritual environment definitely causes us to restrict our routine and gives us a conservative


As for the rest, let me finish my journey and tell you...


Miss you wakwak.

- How do I get to or achieve "the point"?
- What does that mean in terms of rituals/rites, Sacraments etc...? What is their role in "the point" [of everything]?
- How does this affect how I interact with others?
- How does this affect how I view any event internal or external to my person?
[/u]

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“This is the mark of Christianity—however much a man toils, and however many righteousness he performs, to feel that he has done nothing, and in fasting to say, “This is not fasting,” and in praying, “This is not prayer,” and in perseverance at prayer, “I have shown no perseverance; I am only just beginning to practice and take pains”; and even if he is righteous before God, he should say, “I am not righteous, not I; I do not take pains, but only make a beginning every day.” – St. Macarius the Great

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Faith

posted on Jan 09, 2010 - 10:13 AM

Hey Fortunatus,

Since this thread has gone unanswered for a while, I figured I’d give it a shot. I cannot answer where spirituality has gone though, because I’m wondering the same thing (although I’m the last person who should be saying that). But let’s answer your questions one by one. I have no idea if this is what you're looking for. Please note that it’s past 4:00am, sorry if I don’t make sense.

1. What is the point [of everything]?
That’s a bit of a tough question. My ultimate goal is to spend my eternal life with our Lord. I mean, essentially that is what everything I do is based on. One question that I ask myself is, “Will this get me to my goal?” I can’t say I do this all the time, but I try… which really leads into all your other questions.

2. How does this affect what I do?
Well, if I continue to keep the thought, “Will this get me to my [ultimate] goal?” in my mind, it really does affect my actions. Again, I cannot say I do this all the time but when I do it really does make the difference. For example, I occasionally pick people up for church. I usually tell them in advance to be ready by a certain time, but sometimes I’m left out in the driveway for several minutes. I have several options – I can leave since they were not ready on time, I can wait for them and yell at them for disrespecting my time, or I can use this opportunity to practice patience and take the blessing of driving these people to church. Which one will get me to my goal? WWJD?

3. How do I get to or achieve “the point”?
I achieve “the point” by trying to be a good Christian. How do I try to be a good Christian? Simply put, reading the Bible, praying, fasting, partaking of the sacraments, obtaining virtues, and serving… basically through my spiritual life. Just last week a few of our youth were talking about the Coptic Orthodox Church and how we believed it to be the best aide to our salvation. The Church offers so many resources and so many tools for us to achieve our ultimate goal. We just need to take advantage of them and use/partake of them.
I also think our relationship with God is key. Anba Antonious Marcos once told me that eventually we will not have just a relationship with God, but rather we become ONE with God.

4. What does that mean in terms of rituals/rites, Sacraments etc...? What is their role in "the point" [of everything]?
I don’t know what this means in terms of rituals/rites lol. But we all know baptism and Chrismation are essential to enter into the kingdom of God (John 3:5). Communion and repentance/confession are the other two essential ones that we should take part of on a regular basis.
With regards to communion, the best way to sum it up is written in John 6:53-58. That just shows how important it is. I don’t even feel like there’s a way to prepare for such an honour. I am not worthy, but I need Him…
Repentance/confession is also really important to me. Just like any athlete needs a coach to help them win the gold medal, my FoC is my coach to help me to my ultimate goal. He’s there to help me cross that finish line.

5. How does this affect how I interact with others?
As simple as this question may be… I don’t know. I am who I am because of my beliefs, and in essence because of my ultimate goal. I don’t know how this affects how I interact with people. I don’t know how I would be different if my beliefs/ultimate goal were different.

6. How does this affect how I view any event internal or external to my person?
What do you mean?

Please correct me if I’m mistaken anywhere… or if I don’t make sense. Fortunatus, in due time, I’d like to hear your answers to these questions. Please and thanks

Pray for me,
Faith

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Truth.Seeker

posted on Jan 09, 2010 - 05:01 PM

"Well, if I continue to keep the thought, “Will this get me to my [ultimate] goal?” in my mind, it really does affect my actions."

Well said!

The only thing I have something to say about is the mysteries/rites part - we are to believe that they help us even if we can't see the direct link. Pope Shenouda gave a sermon about blessings a long time ago that would be good to listen to on this topic. Basically, the fact that we can't see something doesn't mean it's not there ... we know it's there by faith. E.g. when Isaac blessed Jacob - did that "give" Jacob anything that he could see? No, but there was something there.

For a more concrete example, in Palladius's "Lausiac History," St. Macarius performed a miracle to correct delusions that several people had, and he pointed out that they all had the delusions because they hadn't taken communion for five weeks.

That's why they're "mysteries" - they help us spiritually, but we can't know how. Just like the Holy Spirit prays for us with groans that cannot be uttered.

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Fortunatus

posted on Jan 12, 2010 - 06:13 AM

+Iryny nem `hmot,

3. How do I get to or achieve “the point”?
I achieve “the point” by trying to be a good Christian. How do I try to be a good Christian? Simply put, reading the Bible, praying, fasting, partaking of the sacraments, obtaining virtues, and serving… basically through my spiritual life.

In other words, through seeking holiness?


What does that mean in terms of rituals/rites, Sacraments etc...? What is their role in "the point" [of everything]?

I was basically asking what their role in getting us to the point is, as they are both means and aids. So Sacraments are definitely means, but everything is an aid. The way we enter the sanctuary, the way we do hymns, the reason why we cross ourselves at certain points, the number of times Abouna circles the sanctuary, the fasts, the rules etc... These are not meant to be laws and canons, they're meant to be spiritual aids. I was asking this because I wonder sometimes if we have become a little bit too legalistic about certain things while completely forgetting what their purpose was ever meant to be!

I also think that what you wrote about FoCs is critical. I'm not certain that all of us realise what a resource we have and go to our FoCs for advice regularly, or for spiritual programs to help us progress in the spiritual life. I sometimes get the impression that confession is seen as a duty; that we have to list off our errors in order to gain points in some kind of heavenly scoreboard. Thanks for emphasising its true meaning.


5. How does this affect how I interact with others?
As simple as this question may be… I don’t know. I am who I am because of my beliefs, and in essence because of my ultimate goal. I don’t know how this affects how I interact with people. I don’t know how I would be different if my beliefs/ultimate goal were different.
Great, but I was wondering about how it affects how I treat people. If someone writes something that someone else thinks is completely unintelligent, would the fact that he/she is a Christian change the response? What you're saying is that you have no idea since you're already a Christian. That's a fair answer. I think it's possible that a non-Christian response may be to tear the person apart entirely and show him/her the stupidity of his/her ways. While a Christian may ask, "Is this profitable to my soul, is this going to get me to my goal (like you put in your answer to question 1), is this going to harm my brother/sister or build? Is this going to be a good witness of the One Whom I serve?" etc...


6. How does this affect how I view any event internal or external to my person?
What do you mean?
I mean, will it affect how I interpret things that happen to me? Will it change my outlook on events that transpire in my life? If I fail a course, if someone yells at me, if I'm treated badly, if my sister was killed, if I lose my job, if I have my house robbed etc...


Please correct me if I’m mistaken anywhere… or if I don’t make sense.
My intention was just to get people's input.

KidofKaras - I miss you!! Thanks for your reply.
Pray for me.

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Fortunatus

posted on Jan 12, 2010 - 06:14 AM

+Iryny nem `hmot

sorry, didn't mean to post it twice...still looking for other replies.

pray for me,
fortunatus

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AndrewFanous

posted on Jan 12, 2010 - 11:48 PM

Fortunatus/Wak-Wak/Mina,

I like the topic of discussion you opened, how you posed the question is also very interesting.

A number of discussions have been discussed out of each persons zeal for the church and their love for Christ's bride.

It's nice to caution our selves, to much zeal can burn, the spiritual life that comes from the Lord is modest, humble, and filled with sympathy.

Its hard for the spiritual manner of speech to come out in theological debate, spirituality Is from God, Looks to Jesus Christ always, and has the Holy Spirit leading your will.

All of the great theologians on here are more spiritual discussions, and I see the great love they have for the church, I would assume their spiritual time shines though when they stand up for prayer.

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Fortunatus

posted on Jan 13, 2010 - 04:39 AM

From AndrewFanous:Fortunatus/Wak-Wak/Mina,
All of the great theologians on here are more spiritual discussions, and I see the great love they have for the church, I would assume their spiritual time shines though when they stand up for prayer.

+Iryny nem `hmot,

Dear Andrew,

I hope you're well. I hope that from my post it was not assumed that I was labelling all posters here as non-spiritual. That was not my intent and is why I put the disclaimer at the beginning that I'm not making a judgment. My question is more based on the discussions that we have, not only online, but in reality. I feel like we, or at least I, stray from the point of things. Even when we discuss "Church" things, the focus seems lost.

I apologise if I have caused offense.

pray for me.

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Truth.Seeker

posted on Jan 16, 2010 - 03:23 PM

Fortunatus - I can't seem to post on the pigeon thread, so my response to you is below here:

I zoomed in on the premise of your point. A point can only be discussed based on its premises, otherwise, everyone is just stating his/her conclusion.

I've seen several atheists converted after a tiring amount of breaking down their faulty analysis.

I think you get my Beelzebub point - we don't need to argue about what percent of the crowd thought what. The Chief Priests, who were leading the crowd, definitely said He does the things He does by Beelzebub (that's in the Gospels).

Yes, Jesus did say the devil <i>will</i> do a lot. If you missed it in Revelations, the devil will be let free from the restrictions on him now, at which point he'll be able to do a lot. Until that time, he can't do much. The Antichrist does not exist (now). Will he be able to perform wonders? Yes - but he has to come into existence first. So, if we're talking about something that happened in 2009, saying "beware, the antichrist can do a lot" is meaningless. You might as well say, "beware, someone in the future can do things like this, he didn't do this, but he can do something like this." At the very least, it has nothing to do with the matter at hand. From my POV, it's just deceptive - it seems to say it could've been the devil.

If you're going to use St. Antony as an authority for a point you're making, it's better if he agrees with you. In this case, his point was the exact opposite of what you were using him for.

Our Lord also told us we're going to see a lot of things happen, but we shouldn't think it's the end yet. In other words, He said don't shout "antichrist" all the time - until those things do happen. We can teach about him all we want - but talking about him as if he can do something before he comes into existence is just illogical.

The point from the thread above, is again, it's not necessarily wrong to doubt a miracle, it can in fact be wise. It is not a sin to call in question a miracle, but it is to doubt that God could do it.

Agreed. My point is that if someone doubts a miracle on illogical grounds, whatever spiritual benefit he/she could have gotten out of it will be lost to him/her. As for questioning things, I'm all for it -if for no other reason, I don't want Copts to sound stupid to others. When I'm reading miracle books, I automatically skip over the "I won a lawsuit b/c of St. so and so - I just had a strong feeling that he helped me."

Joined: Feb 25, 2008 | Posts: 965

Fortunatus

posted on Jan 16, 2010 - 10:46 PM

+Iryny nem `hmot,

I zoomed in on the premise of your point. A point can only be discussed based on its premises, otherwise, everyone is just stating his/her conclusion.

I thought you asked me what my point was, but I guess you were actually telling me! Thanks, but if I was making a point it was indirect, I was, as I responded to you already, zooming in on your emphasis.

I think you get my Beelzebub point - we don't need to argue about what percent of the crowd thought what. The Chief Priests, who were leading the crowd, definitely said He does the things He does by Beelzebub (that's in the Gospels).

No, we don't need to argue about that. I think you failed to see the point of that example, though. My point was that they saw real miracles and didn't believe. So the point is that miracles really don't necessarily lead someone to spiritual life and repentance, or everyone who saw our Lord Jesus should have converted. They didn't.


Yes, Jesus did say the devil <i>will</i> do a lot. If you missed it in Revelations, the devil will be let free from the restrictions on him now, at which point he'll be able to do a lot.

No, I didn't miss it. Are you always sarcastic, though? Or was that a sincere concern?

Until that time, he can't do much.

Can you please give me a reference to support this statement? I believe the Bible tells us that even now he can appear as an angel of light. That's pretty impressive. I know also from the Paradise of the Fathers that he has done numerous 'miracles'. On what basis are you saying that he cannot "do much"? I would agree that his full power will be revealed when he comes as Antichrist but I really don't know why you would say he can't "do much". We would probably not need to do any spiritual warfare if he really couldn't "do much".


The Antichrist does not exist (now). Will he be able to perform wonders? Yes - but he has to come into existence first. So, if we're talking about something that happened in 2009, saying "beware, the antichrist can do a lot" is meaningless. You might as well say, "beware, someone in the future can do things like this, he didn't do this, but he can do something like this."

So was our Lord wasting His time when He said exactly that?

At the very least, it has nothing to do with the matter at hand. From my POV, it's just deceptive - it seems to say it could've been the devil.

Can you explain why it's unrelated to the matter at hand? There was a discussion about believing in miracles and false miracles. It would seem to me that it would be appropriate, then, to discuss false miracles. False miracles come from the devil. So discussing false miracles done by the devil really could be relevant. The devil can already do false miracles. It's not going to be only when he comes as antichrist.

If you're going to use St. Antony as an authority for a point you're making, it's better if he agrees with you. In this case, his point was the exact opposite of what you were using him for.

Can you explain how he contradicted what I said again? My point, was that he made a point of showing how the devils had revealed the knowledge to him, but had he not told the monks that it was the devil, they would have thought that he knew miraculously. He was teaching them that devils can give allusions of miraculous happenings. I used him to illustrate that same point, so I'm not sure why you believe he's saying the opposite as me.

Our Lord also told us we're going to see a lot of things happen, but we shouldn't think it's the end yet. In other words, He said don't shout "antichrist" all the time - until those things do happen.

Well, your "in other words" part is purely your interpretation. The fathers in their interpretations seemed to think that we should shout it and warn everyone. I'm wondering if you've ever read St. Cyril of Jerusalem's catechism, or if you read any patristic commentary on those chapters in Matthew. I'm not certain they agree with your analysis of it, and I think it's wisest to go with what the Fathers thought, not what modern laity think about the passage.

We can teach about him all we want - but talking about him as if he can do something before he comes into existence is just illogical.

I find that scary, to be fully honest with you. Our Lord said to teach, and so did the early fathers. On what basis can you call it illogical if none of them thought so?

Agreed. My point is that if someone doubts a miracle on illogical grounds, whatever spiritual benefit he/she could have gotten out of it will be lost to him/her. As for questioning things, I'm all for it -if for no other reason, I don't want Copts to sound stupid to others. When I'm reading miracle books, I automatically skip over the "I won a lawsuit b/c of St. so and so - I just had a strong feeling that he helped me."

I'm glad we agreed on something!

pray for me.

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Fortunatus

posted on Jan 16, 2010 - 10:47 PM

+Iryny nem `hmot,

...and TruthSeeker, please try posting the response in the proper forum if you reply to this. I couldn't do it either, but let's keep the spiritual one spiritual and on topic.

pray for me.

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Truth.Seeker

posted on Jan 17, 2010 - 05:03 PM

Fortunatus, Fortunatus - you have a way of changing what I said, and then replying to your change, not the original. I hope it's not on purpose, but please do keep an eye out for it. Instead of defending what I say, I just end up saying why what you're replying to is not what I said. I have a much bigger interest in the former.

I asked what your point is, because the premise seems illogical to me. So, after obliterating it, I inquired if you have another premise you'd like to insert.

I didn't say miracles necessarily lead someone to spiritual life. But I cannot ignore Jesus's words - "if you don't believe My words, believe because of the things that I do." When John wanted to know if Jesus is the Christ, Jesus told his disciples to tell them, "the blind see, the sick are healed ..." We are to point out miracles and destroy any possible refutation. If people ignore all that, that's their business.

I'm only sarcastic when someone is missing a point that they thought I missed. I specifically worded my Revelations comment because of that, but I can't remember what you said to warrant that response. I'm too uninterested to scroll up and find out (there's no sarcasm here ). Oh, now I remember - you talked about the devil sending fire from heaven. That is in Relevation. Can't just talk about what the devil will do and ignore the part that says he has to be freed to do it - especially when they're both in the same book.

So was our Lord wasting His time when He said exactly that?

I really don't understand what is difficult about my point. Jesus wasn't wasting His time when telling people about the antichrist because He had to warn us of what to look for. Once the warning is out, we'd be dumb to talk about things like we didn't get the memo. Here is an example:

The 2008 elections took place November 4th, 2008 (you can analogize all the things Jesus said were going to happen before the Antichrist to Nov. 1st/2nd/3rd). Someone walks out of some random booth on October 25th, 2008, and people are wondering what he was doing. Someone stands up and says, "Well, guys, he could be voting for president."

I'm tired of repeating myself.

The devil can't do much for the simple fact that everytime he did something in the Paradise, they knew it was the devil. When St. Macarius was getting palm leaves and the devil stood infront of him with a hatchet, he knew exactly who it was. When one of the old fathers was dying and he saw a dog standing next to the window, he knew who it was. When the devil appeared as Christ Himself and told an old monk to worship him, he figured him out right away, "I worship my God everyday, why would He ask me to do it?"

Notice that whenever the devil is trying to do something it's always to take people away from God. That’s the whole point of the Antichrist – “so that they’ll believe the lie, having not believed the truth.” The Antichrist will be given power by the devil (who would’ve just been freed to do a lot), and the whole point is that people will worship the Antichrist because all of this power that he has. When we are talking about a pigeon flying in a church, I don’t see anybody worshiping the Antichrist because of it. But we don’t even need to get to that – taking Christ as His word (which is all I’m trying to do), I cannot bring myself to make it look like the devil could have done things that God’s Word tells us he will only be able to do after A, B, and C; when A, B, and C have not occurred.

I am running out of ways of repeating myself.

Instead of wondering what I’ve read – point me to what you’re talking about. Give me a quote.

I find that scary, to be fully honest with you. Our Lord said to teach, and so did the early fathers. On what basis can you call it illogical if none of them thought so?

Again, you changed my point, then argued against the change. My exact statement, which you even quoted: “We can teach about him all we want - but talking about him as if he can do something before he comes into existence is just illogical.” Maybe you misunderstood the statement – I wasn’t saying that we should wait until he comes into existence to start teaching about him. I was saying (and everything I said should’ve pointed you in this direction): if X event happened, and for Y to have performed X, then A, B, and C would have had to take place first, and we know that A, B, and C have not taken place, then we cannot talk about X as if Y performed it. Take a minute to read the preceding statement.

P.S. sorry if any of the above is harsher than I mean it to be. It's just that the more I have to repeat myself, the more blunt my statements will get. That's on purpose, and it's not to vent, it's because the least confusing way is the most straightforward way, i.e. the blunt way.

Joined: Feb 25, 2008 | Posts: 965

Ranya+++

posted on Jan 17, 2010 - 09:56 PM

+++

Joined: Jul 30, 2005 | Posts: 88

Truth.Seeker

posted on Jan 17, 2010 - 11:15 PM

I thought the old man had told one of the monks the truth before he died?

We're all calm here, disagreements don't mean obliteration of the Church. Trust me, if the Church could withstand Arianism, this is less than nothing.

Joined: Feb 25, 2008 | Posts: 965

Fortunatus

posted on Jan 18, 2010 - 12:44 AM

+

Dear Truth.Seeker,

As someone has been offended, I withdraw for the sake of that soul.

To Ranya,

My most sincere apologies if I caused offense. I was, personally, actually having a discussion that I did believe to be of complete relevance to our spiritual lives. Believing in false miracles and emphasising these aspects of spirituality, is dangerous. I was hoping that we would go back to the fathers and see what they had to say. Saint Macarius spent two years debating whether one thought of his was from the devil or not, but somehow we think things are easily painted black and white. We focus so much on miracles, that we forget about spiritual life, we forget about holiness - we focus on our egos. Believe it or not, that's why I started the other forum on "Where has spirituality gone". Clearly, things were not taken that way, and so I will withdraw from this discuss. For my part, I was neither upset nor intending to upset anyone, I was trying to steer the discussion to something I thought would be edifying.

Spiritual life needs to start with humility - with subjection to a father of confession. Our way of thought ought to conform to the Bible, and the teachings of the Fathers. Our own opinions and interpretations are really of no relevance if we want perfection. God gave us a mind to think, but he gave us teachers to direct. Unfortunately, we tend to self-direct, and we have become very Protestant in this respect (e.g. our own interpretations become our teaching).

The desire for holiness needs to drive us in everything we do, so that we can obtain the goal. Everything we say or do has to come from that. We should never speak as though having authority, whatever thought we express should be one that was taught and held by the fathers - not from our own minds. If we care about each others' salvation, then sarcasm, belittling each other or expressing exasperation over someone's questions have no place. In fact, we really believe to have the truth, then we should be all the more loving. Unfortunately, we sometimes declare to have the truth far more often than we are actually seeking it - that's not a personal attack at you, TruthSeeker, it's a general observation at the state of many of us, the Church.

God is the goal, holiness is the means, and if we do not learn how to love one another, then indeed, Amen Come Lord Jesus, for how intolerable will the world be if Christians have lost Love.

Once again, my sincere apologies if I caused offense to anyone at all. Truly this was not my intention, and truly I didn't see in my posts that this was going to have such an effect. I was answering some posts because I was asked, not because I wanted to rectify others' thoughts - no matter how wrong or right I perceive them to be based on what I received.

Pray for me.

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Joined: Sep 04, 2003 | Posts: 458
Location: the Coptic Orthodox Church

Truth.Seeker

posted on Jan 18, 2010 - 03:11 AM

Fortunatus - Ranya said she has not even read what we had to write, so I don't think there's any danger in replying to my post. I'm particularly interested in the Patristics you say back up your points.

As a general point to everybody, let me give you a soft sampling of how the Fathers used to write -

From St. Jerome:

I was requested by certain of the brethren not long ago to reply to a pamphlet written by one Helvidius. I have deferred doing so, not because it is a difficult matter to maintain the truth and refute an ignorant boor who has scarce known the first glimmer of learning, but because I was afraid my reply might make him appear worth defeating.

From St. Jerome: I know not whether to grieve or laugh. Shall I convict him of ignorance, or accuse him of rashness?

I'm not directing this at anyone; I'm saying that unless we want to convict most of the Church Fathers of being non-spiritual, we should consider the efficacy of to-the-point writing.

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Joined: Feb 25, 2008 | Posts: 965

Faith

posted on Jan 18, 2010 - 06:44 AM

Hey Truth.Seeker,

I'm no Theologian, but I wanted to comment on something you said since Fortunatus chose not to reply.

From Truth.Seeker:When we are talking about a pigeon flying in a church, I don’t see anybody worshiping the Antichrist because of it.

I don't think that Fortunatus implied in any way that a pigeon flying in a church and landing on the pope's table had anything to do with worshipping the Antichrist. What I understood from Fortunatus was that we should be practicing discernment and not believing in every single thing that is claimed to be a miracle. If we believe everything that happens to be a miracle, then how much more will we fall for the Antichrist?

Other than that, I don't know what you guys are even discussing anymore... Your posts are worded so sophisticatedly, however I fail to see any substance. Forgive me for my ignorance.

Pray for me,
Faith

_________________
*My deepest fear is not that we are inadequate, my deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure...*

*The penalty of sin is to face, not the anger of Jesus, but the heartbreak in his eyes...*

*God wants spiritual fruit, not religious nuts*

*Happy moments, praise God.
Difficult moments, seek God.
Quiet moments, worship God.
Painful moments, trust God.
Every moment, thank God.*

Joined: Nov 24, 2004 | Posts: 86
Location: Kitchener, Ontario, Canada

Truth.Seeker

posted on Jan 18, 2010 - 08:01 AM

Hey Faith,

My whole point is that since people are not talking about the Antichrist when it comes to the pigeon event, I don't see why everyone and his/her mother is bringing the Antichrist into the discussion. In other words - the inquiry is why Fortunatus keeps talking about the Antichrist when, as you pointed out, he wouldn't say that he had anything to do with the pigeon.

Well, I think the substance is there. My main points are quite easy, I just keep rewording them since people seem to love to ignore what I'm talking about and randomly talk about the Antichrist, and the Devil and fire from heaven ... when all of that has nothing to do with the topic.

I'll try to reword my posts differently if that'll be helpful.

Joined: Feb 25, 2008 | Posts: 965

Faith

posted on Jan 18, 2010 - 08:13 AM

Hey Truth.Seeker,

Thanks for your reply. I realize it's lame to quote myself, but if we're going to play the whole "I'm tired of repeating myself" game, I kinda want in on it too.

From Faith: What I understood from Fortunatus was that we should be practicing discernment and not believing in every single thing that is claimed to be a miracle. If we believe everything that happens to be a miracle, then how much more will we fall for the Antichrist?


I'm not really sure how Fortunatus' point was taken to mean that people who believe in the pigeon event are worshipping Antichrist. Must be the high sophistication that I clearly lack

Pray for me,
Faith

_________________
*My deepest fear is not that we are inadequate, my deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure...*

*The penalty of sin is to face, not the anger of Jesus, but the heartbreak in his eyes...*

*God wants spiritual fruit, not religious nuts*

*Happy moments, praise God.
Difficult moments, seek God.
Quiet moments, worship God.
Painful moments, trust God.
Every moment, thank God.*

Joined: Nov 24, 2004 | Posts: 86
Location: Kitchener, Ontario, Canada

Truth.Seeker

posted on Jan 18, 2010 - 03:28 PM

Well, that's very simple - and I just mentioned it recently. The Antichrist will be a man walking around calling himself Christ and telling people to worship him - should not be hard to spot.

This statement:

From Faith:
I'm not really sure how Fortunatus' point was taken to mean that people who believe in the pigeon event are worshipping Antichrist.

means nothing, when you're responding to someone who said:

From Truth.Seeker: In other words - the inquiry is why Fortunatus keeps talking about the Antichrist when, as you pointed out, <b>he wouldn't</b> say that he had anything to do with the pigeon.

If you're going to ridicule something, make sure you're ridiculing the statement that someone actually said. Rules of the game. Find me one instance in which I said I think that's what Fortunatus was saying.

I was repeatedly telling him he's off topic. In other words, it's because he doesn't think that it was the Antichrist, that bringing him into the discussion is a waste of time.

This is a thread about the pigeon event (look at the title of the thread). When someone can't find something to say in response to my post about that event, they think it is sufficient to just say, "be careful, the devil and the Antichrist are bad." To which I have been saying, 1) it's illogical to say they had anything to do with this event, 2) since they had nothing to do with this event, why are you ignoring the topic and talking about them?

Simple enough I think.

Joined: Feb 25, 2008 | Posts: 965

Faith

posted on Jan 18, 2010 - 06:42 PM

From Truth.Seeker:Well, that's very simple - and I just mentioned it recently. The Antichrist will be a man walking around calling himself Christ and telling people to worship him - should not be hard to spot.

Okay, but if the Copts are believing that a pigeon landing in front of the pope is a miracle from God, why wouldn't they think the Antichrist is God? He's going to be doing miracles too (which seems to be what we keep looking for, miracles).

From Truth.Seeker:
This statement:

From Faith:
I'm not really sure how Fortunatus' point was taken to mean that people who believe in the pigeon event are worshipping Antichrist.

means nothing, when you're responding to someone who said:

From Truth.Seeker: In other words - the inquiry is why Fortunatus keeps talking about the Antichrist when, as you pointed out, <b>he wouldn't</b> say that he had anything to do with the pigeon.

If you're going to ridicule something, make sure you're ridiculing the statement that someone actually said. Rules of the game. Find me one instance in which I said I think that's what Fortunatus was saying.

Actually, I wasn't referring to the quote that you just quoted yourself. I was actually referring to this one (which I actually quoted before):

From Truth.Seeker:When we are talking about a pigeon flying in a church, I don’t see anybody worshiping the Antichrist because of it.

I took that to mean that you think Fortunatus thinks people are worshipping Antichrist by believing in the pigeon event being a miracle. However, like I said in my last two posts, I took Fortunatus' original point to be that we should be practicing discernment, because in the time of Antichrist, if we are unable to distinguish a false miracle from a true miracle, we will fall for the Antichrist.

From Truth.Seeker:I was repeatedly telling him he's off topic. In other words, it's because he doesn't think that it was the Antichrist, that bringing him into the discussion is a waste of time.

Again, it was not a waste of time. Your ignorance is actually a bit scary because I can imagine that you're not the only one who thinks this way.

From Truth.Seeker:This is a thread about the pigeon event (look at the title of the thread). When someone can't find something to say in response to my post about that event, they think it is sufficient to just say, "be careful, the devil and the Antichrist are bad." To which I have been saying, 1) it's illogical to say they had anything to do with this event, 2) since they had nothing to do with this event, why are you ignoring the topic and talking about them?

No offense Truth.Seeker, but it's not that someone can't find something to say in response to your posts. They are in fact responding to your points, but you are choosing to ignore their responses. 1) Why is everything illogical to you? I thought it was pretty logical to be honest. I'm still playing the repeating myself game. Discernment in such events is crucial. If we believe everything to be a miracle, then how much more will we fall for the Antichrist? 2) Why shouldn't we be telling people to practice discernment? Do you really think it's best not to talk about it until Antichrist comes, in which case people will have already been tricked? I mean, if you can answer me these last 3 questions, then I will simply bow out and let you have the last word.

From Truth.Seeker:Simple enough I think.

I guess so.

_________________
*My deepest fear is not that we are inadequate, my deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure...*

*The penalty of sin is to face, not the anger of Jesus, but the heartbreak in his eyes...*

*God wants spiritual fruit, not religious nuts*

*Happy moments, praise God.
Difficult moments, seek God.
Quiet moments, worship God.
Painful moments, trust God.
Every moment, thank God.*

Joined: Nov 24, 2004 | Posts: 86
Location: Kitchener, Ontario, Canada

Truth.Seeker

posted on Jan 19, 2010 - 01:34 AM

From Faith:
Okay, but if the Copts are believing that a pigeon landing in front of the pope is a miracle from God, why wouldn't they think the Antichrist is God? He's going to be doing miracles too (which seems to be what we keep looking for, miracles).

That makes no sense. When the Antichrist is performing his wonders, he will be right there with his wonders, saying "look at what I can do." At those times, it won't be about what's being performed, it'll be about 1) who is he claiming he is, 2) in whose name is he doing these things. The Copts have been told by Jesus Christ that that will be the Antichrist, not Him.

Let's follow your logic - let's ignore all the miracles of St. Mary, St. Philopater Mercurius, St. Mina, Pope Kyrillos VI, Fr. Abdel-Messih and everyone else, because if Copts believe those miracles are from God, then they might believe the Antichrist is God when he performs his wonders.

Let's go one step further, let's completely ignore God Himself. Let's take this out of the Gospel: Mark 16:17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

Let's not believe that those signs follow those who believe in Him because Copts might believe in the Antichrist when he performs his wonders.

From Faith:
I took that to mean that you think Fortunatus thinks people are worshipping Antichrist by believing in the pigeon event being a miracle.

It's not my problem that you don't know how to take things.

From Faith:
Again, it was not a waste of time. Your ignorance is actually a bit scary because I can imagine that you're not the only one who thinks this way.

For someone who keeps saying you don't know much, pronouncing ignorance on someone is an amazing feat.

Seems to me like you don't know anything about the Antichrist. This is really really simple: as long as there's no person saying that he is to be worshiped because of what he can do, he is not the Antichrist. There is a mass of literature written about the Antichrist. I suggest you spend some time reading it.

Since you think I am ignorant with respect to the Antichrist discussion, I would greatly appreciate it if you share some of your vast knowledge with me, and everyone else here.

From Faith:
1) Why is everything illogical to you? I thought it was pretty logical to be honest. I'm still playing the repeating myself game. Discernment in such events are crucial. If we believe everything to be a miracle, then how much more will we fall for the Antichrist? 2) Why shouldn't we be telling people to practice discernment? Do you really think it's best not to talk about it until Antichrist comes, in which case people will have already been tricked? I mean, if you can answer me these last 3 questions, then I will simply bow out and let you have the last word.

1) I have already stated reasons for why I think whatever is illogical, is illogical. If it makes sense to you - whatever.

2) We should tell people to practice discernment - I agree. Have you even read what I have been writing?

3) This question just makes me laugh. Let me quote myself from above, in a post addressed to Fortunatus:

From Truth.Seeker:Again, you changed my point, then argued against the change. My exact statement, which you even quoted: “We can teach about him all we want - but talking about him as if he can do something before he comes into existence is just illogical.” Maybe you misunderstood the statement – <b>I wasn’t saying that we should wait until he comes into existence to start teaching about him.</b> I was saying (and everything I said should’ve pointed you in this direction): if X event happened, and for Y to have performed X, then A, B, and C would have had to take place first, and we know that A, B, and C have not taken place, then we cannot talk about X as if Y performed it. Take a minute to read the preceding statement.

Joined: Feb 25, 2008 | Posts: 965

Fortunatus

posted on Jan 19, 2010 - 05:17 AM

From Truth.Seeker:Fortunatus - Ranya said she has not even read what we had to write, so I don't think there's any danger in replying to my post. I'm particularly interested in the Patristics you say back up your points.

+Iryny nem `hmot,

Dear Truth"Seeker",

If you truly want to continue this for edification, then I will do it by PM with you, because I actually do care about offending people. If you actually want to have a discussion, send a PM.

I thank God that I had resigned as forum moderator years ago, as your recent posts without doubt would have been censured and moderation put on your account.

You appear to forget that the fathers used sarcasm when dealing with heretics, not with brothers and sisters. Virtually always, they used it with unrepentant heretics. Since you're so keen to point people to read, perhaps you should take a gander at reading Cyril's letters to Nestorius before the Council. You also appear to forget that the fathers were correct, had years of education in this, had spiritual fathers (yes, even Cyril had a spiritual guide), and knew their Bibles and what all the fathers before us said . Most of us, don't consider ourselves equal to the fathers, nor do we think we have the virtue and discernment of the desert fathers.

May the Lord have mercy.

Faith, I suggest you withdraw for the sake of your own peace and because the discussion right now is purely vain. Recall that we will be judged for every vain word.

Pray for me, please.

\[/u][/i]

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Joined: Sep 04, 2003 | Posts: 458
Location: the Coptic Orthodox Church

Faith

posted on Jan 19, 2010 - 05:27 AM

From Fortunatus:
Faith, I suggest you withdraw for the sake of your own peace and because the discussion right now is purely vain. Recall that we will be judged for every vain word.


I was seriously considering withdrawing after reading Truth.Seeker's last post. Then I read your post... I'm officially withdrawing from this discussion.

Pray for me,
Faith

_________________
*My deepest fear is not that we are inadequate, my deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure...*

*The penalty of sin is to face, not the anger of Jesus, but the heartbreak in his eyes...*

*God wants spiritual fruit, not religious nuts*

*Happy moments, praise God.
Difficult moments, seek God.
Quiet moments, worship God.
Painful moments, trust God.
Every moment, thank God.*

Joined: Nov 24, 2004 | Posts: 86
Location: Kitchener, Ontario, Canada

Truth.Seeker

posted on Jan 20, 2010 - 02:19 AM

Fortunatus,

You can use quotation marks and italicize the word appear all you want. In the end, you are writing in the way you have been criticizing. If you were moderator, you would have to censure yourself. At least I am straightforward in my remarks.

When you are the Patriarch of Constantinople, I will address you like St. Cyril addressed Nestorius before the latter's excommunication.

Maybe you should take a gander at this passage from St. Cyril's Third Letter to Nestorius, which took place BEFORE the Council:

From St Cyril: we do testify to thee in this third Letter too, counselling thee to refrain from the so crooked and perverted doctrines which thou both holdest and teachest, and to choose in place of them the Right Fatih which was delivered to the Churches from the beginning through the holy Apostles and Evangelists who have been both eye-witnesses and ministers of the word.

You can call me ignorant all you want - the sources you use are usually the most vocal things about how wrong you are.

With that, I am finished with this thread. Anybody who wants to have a serious discussion can PM me. I am bored of being called wrong and ignorant with nothing to back up the name-calling.

Joined: Feb 25, 2008 | Posts: 965