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posted on Aug 25, 2009 - 05:35 PM
Could someone point me to a source or explain where we are with respect to our Christological dialogue with the Eastern Orthodox Churches?
Whose Holy Synod has accepted what? (e.g. which Synods have accepted Chambesy II).
Have we come to a standstill with regards to full communion or is it a mere delay?
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posted on Aug 25, 2009 - 05:44 PM
http://www.orthodoxunity.org/
i peer at this site form time to time. it either hasn't been updated in a year or no significant talks have taken place in that time. either way there's some good stuff in it.
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posted on Aug 25, 2009 - 06:06 PM
Thanks for your reply!
That's the problem I'm having. I keep getting pieces and bits of information from different sites (like the one you listed, and the British Orthodox Church website, and Metropolitan Bishoy's website, or the Syrian Orthodox Website). I was wondering if there's something that has everything on the topic.
posted on Aug 25, 2009 - 07:24 PM
If you want to see the other side of the argument, the anti-ecumenical movement with the Oriental Orthodox look here: http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/ea_mono.aspx. But I warn you. It is filled with deceptive "facts" that question our understanding of theology and ecumenism.
It simply shows why some Chalcedonians do not accept any ecumenical result, unless the non-Chalcedonians repent. It's ridiculous on so many levels. I was working on a rebuttal article.
But there is no one website that has everything on the topic. The closest thing you will find is the Coptic Orthodox Office of Ecumenical Affairs at http://www.ecucopt.org/home.php. However, it hasn't been updated since 2006. And the contact link is broken.
George
posted on Aug 26, 2009 - 12:48 AM
+
George,
Can we please talk about that website--the one against unity with the non-Chalcedonian "heretics" (i.e. us). I've read it so many times and am sometimes persuaded that the guy who wrote it is right. Forgive my gullibility.
What "deceptive 'facts' " are you referring to?
Please keep working on that rebuttal article! 
Thank you,
Mike Henry
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Mi,ayl Henri
posted on Aug 26, 2009 - 03:42 AM
There is some pretty amazing things on that website. And I don't mean the good kind of amazing.
"nor have they decisively and conclusively renounced the teachings of Dioscoros, Severos, Eutyches." The website says this about Oriental Orthodox.
At Chalcedon, Dioscorus was not even condemned for his theology, and Dioscorus himself said that if Eutyches only believes in a divine nature, he should be anathematized.
Mike, the whole website is a deceptive fact after another. For example, we've never changed anything in our Christology, but that website makes it seem like we left our "heresy" and now have come closer to Orthodoxy.
I recommend reading "The Council of Chalcedon Re-Examined" before delving too much into that website since it's one of those websites that can be laughed at by someone who's read a lot about the topic but might be taken at face value for someone who hasn't. It's not about being gullible, it's about straight up deception by a bunch of monks, it's sad.
George, please let us know when your article is complete.
posted on Aug 27, 2009 - 12:06 AM
Mike, here is one very big example.
Chalcedonian argument
On their website, they claim that the Orthodox Church views the Trisagion (Agioc o :eoc) as a Trinitarian hymn and that "monophysite" heretics added the phrase "Who were crucified". This shows that the Monophysites "invented" hymns to propogate their monophysite heresy. With such an addition, the Monophysites somehow "twisted" the words of the Fathers and changed the Trisagion to a Christological hymn, not a Trinitarion hymn. As a reference, the site quotes John of Damascus who writes [quote]"the hymn called the Trisagion, by way of addition after the words 'Holy and Immortal' there are inserted the words, 'who was crucified for our sake, have mercy upon us,' but this addition was excluded from that hymn by the Holy Fathers of old on the ground that it is alien to piety, considering that such an utterance must be due to some innovating and disloyal heretic"
Coptic rebuttal
The fact of the matter is that John of Damascus wrote in the 7th century. He believed that the addition to the Trisagion was done by Peter the Fuller, whom he considered a heretic monophysite. (The anomosity stems from the Chalcedonian belief that Peter the Fuller politically and violently deposed of the innocent Bishop Martyros so he can occupy his bishopric seat. In other words, they accused Peter of illegial political tactics) John of Damascus failed to recognize that the addition to the Trisagion was not a new 7th century addition by it was used in Antioch and Egypt from the 5th century. St. Severus wrote a homily on it the 5th century. I believe liturgical documents from St. Shenouda's monastery also used the Trisagion additions. I consulted with Fr. Peter Ferrington about this. He pointed me to Bar Silibas and Bar Habreus of the Syrian Orthodox Church who in the 7th century said the Trisagion was sung to Christ by Joseph of Arimethea Nicodemus at the Burial of Christ. This means that Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea believed they were glorifying Christ's divinity, not the Trinity. Fr. Peter also directed me to an article that said that a Non-Chalcedonian Christian convinced the Chalcedonian emperor to allow the additions - which was approved and used in Chalcedonian churches. This also occurred in the 5th century. We have records of Chalcedonian bishops who used the additions before John of Damascus opposed it. The list goes on.
I believe it was John of Damascus who decreed that the Trisagion is a Trinitarian hymn on the basis that it was always used as a Trinitarian hymn. As such all Chalcedonians refuse any addition to the Trisagion because there was a council in Trullo in the 7th century that excommunicated anybody who used the additions even though it was a Christological hymn from the 5th century.
So in conclusion, it was the Chalcedonians who changed the use of the Trisagion and blamed it on the Non-Chalcedonians. Yet, the Chalcedonians state that they always kept the faith and words of the "Fathers" and the heretic non-Chalcedonians added their heresy. Therefore, we non-Chalcedonians have to "repent" in order to be Orthodox.
And this is only one example. Let me know if you want to discuss more.
George
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posted on Aug 28, 2009 - 07:56 PM
It's very sad that one of the attacks they have on us is the fact that a hymn is directed to Christ and not the Trinity! It really is not an issue at all! Besides the historical and patristic evidence that the hymn was accepted in many circles early on, the important thing is that neither is contrary to the faith and orthodoxy.
Christological or Trinitarian the important thing is that the hymn is theological and spiritual. When one address Christ in the Trisagion he addresses the Trinity also. In praising and glorifying the Divinity of Christ one praises the Son. Christ himself said that him and his Father are one, sharing the same Divine Essence. He is the Image of the Invisible God. Praise to the Son is Praise to the Father. With regards to the Holy Spirit, the Apostle says also, "No one can say Christ is Lord except through the Holy Spirit". So in essence, praising and glorying the Son involves the two other persons of the Trinity. Metropolitan Kallistos Ware mentioned a similar theme when he mentioned that the "Jesus" Prayer is actually a "Trinitarian prayer" for the same reasons I mentioned above. "Jesus Christ (Said through the Holy Spirit), Son of God (God the Father) Have mercy on me!" Directed to Trinity or Directed to Christ is one in the same. It saddens me that some of our EO brethren might use this difference as a means to attack and/or demean Oriental Orthodoxy.
Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal Have Mercy on Us
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