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tonyhabibi

posted on Jun 08, 2009 - 02:29 PM

I am debating on facebook the subject of Whom sinned first Adam or Eve .

The person I am debating is saying Adam sinned first , because Eve was ultimately his responsibility , while i agree with that , i feel that Adam did his job in Guiding Eve , but eve acting out of free will , still broke Adam and Gods word .

i will now copy and paste what i said , and perhaps u all can add something to this.

You and christene are argueing that the first sinned commited by man is the sin of neglecting to guide his wife. However , what I am arguing is that EVE WAS GUIDED , because she herself told and repeated God's Rule to the serpent . Genesis - " 1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"

Here even the Serpent reminds her of what God said !

Cont..

2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "

See what Eve said ? " GOD DID SAY .. " So marian and christene , Eve knew the rule , yet she still sinned . Adam told the rule to Eve, by Eve's own repetition of the Rule to the Serpent . and Also , another extremely worthy point is that Eve recognized it was GOD'S RULE , and not adams therefore, she knew the enormity and seriousness of it, and was fully guided in that respect alone .

Adam guided his wife in telling her the rule. She knew it, Just like me and you know what is a sin , and what is not a sin , yet we still sin ,Same applies to eve .


Also , I claimed that Eve was instructed by Adam and God. I can argue this because of this verse
GEN - Ch 3: 8

" Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden.

We can take from that , that God regularly walked in the Garden , because it does not say that God descended from heaven to earth to Walk in the Garden at that particular moment , but rather walked casually , ordinarily in Paradise. and God Later on asks them " Where are you ?" which shows that he was used to seeing them in the Garden . Now since one of the traits of the Son Of God Jesus is Good Teacher , It is extremely likely God taught Adam and Eve while walking with them in the Garden and even expected .

This is why I argue that Eve was taught by Adam and God .


- Finally ,
i want to say adam is just as equally guilty as eve because he took the fruit from eve , and did not trust in god and forgot his law . Remember i am arguing a technical issue which was who sinned first . Ultimately Adam bears some sort of responsibility over Eve's sin , but I am arguing he Did his job in telling her the rule, because she admits she knows the rule given by adam and God to her while she spoke to the serpent .

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Truth.Seeker

posted on Jun 08, 2009 - 04:48 PM

I'm sensing a whole lot of feminism and a whole little of useful theology in the whole debate.

1 Timothy 2:14
And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.

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Truth.Seeker

posted on Jun 08, 2009 - 06:05 PM

In a larger context. We are the responsibility of our priests, bishops, metropolitans, and popes. Are they to be found to have "sinned" everytime we sinned because they didn't stop it? Nonsense. They are released from their responsibility ONCE they tell us what's wrong and what's right.

In any case, as is usual with ridiculous interpretations of Scriptures, people assume their conclusion or go at it with a conclusion they want to prove. I sense feminism here, somehow making the "man" guilty first. What's funny is that it's coming from a non-feminist area, i.e. "man's responsibility for his wife."

Don't waste your time.

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David_the_King

posted on Jun 08, 2009 - 06:46 PM

Here's a quote from the Wisdom of Jesus the son of Sirach:

"Of the woman came the beginning of sin, and through her we all die." (Sirach 25:24).

In another translation, "Sin began with a woman, and we all must die because of her." (Sirach 25:24)

This post is not an insult, nor anything further than me answering the posted question of who was the first sinner.

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geomekhaiel

posted on Jun 08, 2009 - 07:19 PM

+Happy belated feast of Pentecost and fast of the Apostles!

Hey Guys,

This is an interesting question.

I think that Even committed the sin first and that Adam committed it second. Adam may have some fault in Eve committing the sin first, but his fault is "sin not leading to death" whereas Eve's fault is "sin leading to death." If Adam was a better leader than Eve would not have indulged her desire for sin; but none the less, she is the first to sin.

I think we need to look at this subject on a more universal scale and simply observe that "humanity" sinned and caused "humanity" to fall. There isn't much reason to point fingers at Adam or Eve...only at the nature of humanity (not that I'm saying that anyone is pointing figures).

Let us resist our nature and pursue righteousness; knowing that there is a serious condemnation for our actions!

George Mekhaiel

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mazmariam

posted on Jun 09, 2009 - 02:23 PM

There is a big danger with discussing 'who sinned first'.

The sin of disobedience that BOTH Adam and Eve committed is what took them from God's presence.

Adam committed as much of a sin as Eve as he also gave into temptation and didn't seem to resist. He led himself to sin. This is a big lesson to us that we each need to be on guard and not place others in blame for our own mistakes.

This notion of Eve sinning first is a cause for much discrimination against Women and stops us from seeing each other as equally created in the Image of God.

So although you may not prefer the term 'feminism' we must be weary to keep an eye on how we speak about women as in the new covenant 'there is neither male nor female'.

The bottom line is. Both man and woman sinned and did not repent or seek forgiveness.

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geomekhaiel

posted on Jun 09, 2009 - 02:53 PM

Hey all,

I'm sorry, but there is something which I really want to make clear about my last post because I felt that it could be misunderstood.

Adam and Eve both committed sin which leads to death. Adam actually committed two sins...eating the fruit (the sin which lead to death) and not being a good leader (sin which does not lead to death).

Sorry...I just felt that if someone read my first post then they would somehow think that I was saying that Adam's sin did not lead humanity into death...but that only Eve's sin did.

George Mekhaiel

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tonyhabibi

posted on Jun 09, 2009 - 03:13 PM

mazmariam , or should i call you hillary clinton ?
Eve sinned first .

To all the men i say " do not be ashamed to tell the world that our sinful nature is because of women , u are accusing adam of not watching over his wife ... is his wife a pet ? who needs to constantly be checked ? you shoud have more respect for women .

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Truth.Seeker

posted on Jun 09, 2009 - 03:15 PM

We do not re-interpret an obvious verse because someone may misuse it. If we did that, we should just put the Bible aside and be done with it. From Arius to Nestorius, to the Icon wars, to Purgatory, to saved in a second. The basis of which were/are bad interpretations.

Eve disobyed God first, Adam disobeyed Him second. That's as far as it goes. St. Paul seems to think that's worthy of some merit to mention - 1 Timothy 2:13-14 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.

Beyond St. Paul using this to discuss Church government, we do not use it. If someone somehow tries to use the verse to say that women are inferior to men than that person is going beyond what is written and is confused, since, as you mentioned, in Christ, "there's neither male or female."

As to the intentions of the people who are inventing things from their imagination, we'd need to know more about who Tony is talking with and fix whatever is leading them to this ridiculousness.

It's like arguing with a Catholic about Papal Infallibility, every good thing written about St. Peter is attributed, somehow, to apply to Pope Benedict XVI, and every good thing written about any Pope of Rome is somehow a sign of his supremacy and infallibility. For fun, use a quote written from St. Basil about St. Athanasius, say, St. Basil wrote this about "the Pope," and see the Catholic's reaction about how it points to the supremacy of the Pope of Rome. Then tell them it was written about St. Athanasius.

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Peter

posted on Jun 11, 2009 - 06:36 AM

The premise of the question, who sinned first, is flawed. It does not matter who sinned "first" for they are one flesh, both equally culpable as a result. Eve's body was not her own but rather Adam's and vice versa (the same with any married couple). They shared equally in the sin.

Even if Eve was solely to blame, St. Mary, the second Eve, rectified the situation removing reproach from womenkind.

Ultimately this is one of those fruitless debates one needs discernment to avoid. It is moot point, for the effects of their sin has been overcome by Christ and by us through Him.

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Truth.Seeker

posted on Jun 11, 2009 - 07:16 PM

I'd put a limiting factor on Peter's first statement, because that would mean that every husband is responsible for his wife's sin and vice versa. I do absolutely agree that it's a fruitless debate.

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Biboboy

posted on Jun 12, 2009 - 06:13 AM

Agape,

They were both there, and they were both equally tempted, and they both sinned equally and at the same time.

Eve wasn't tempted by the serpent when she was alone. In Genesis 3:6, it is written that Adam was with Eve, and when Eve was responding to the serpent, she was responding in the plural - on behalf of Adam - while Adam just stood there, tempted along with her instead of being a good husband and protecting his wife from sin.

_________________
"Our hearts are restless until they find rest in You, Lord" (St. Augustine, Confessions, I, 1).

"Pray gently and calmly,
Chant hymns with understanding and rhythm;
Then you will soar like a young eagle
High in the heavens"
+ St. Evagrius the Solitary, On Prayer, 82.

In Christ,
Bishoy
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Truth.Seeker

posted on Jun 12, 2009 - 03:19 PM

How can you possibly say "and they both sinned equally and at the same time."

In the face of this ...

"Of the woman came the BEGINNING of sin, and through her we all die." (Sirach 25:24).

In another translation, "Sin BEGAN with a woman, and we all must die because of her." (Sirach 25:24)

And Adam was NOT the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. (1 Timothy 2:14)

_____

Genesis 3:6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate.

We can't interpret this apart from everything else on the subject. "Her husband with her" could have been referring to the OTHER human who was around - her husband, not that he was standing RIGHT THERE and watching. Even if he was standing right there and watching, we've got St. Paul explicitly pointing out that there was a difference in the sin of Eve and Adam. Eve speaking in the plural "we" because the commandment was with given to both of them. USUALLY, if someone is referring to something that was given to a group, even if he is the only one around, he says, "we." Like saying "we received teachings from our Holy Fathers" eventhough I'm the only one who's around.

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Biboboy

posted on Jun 15, 2009 - 03:33 PM

Agape,

I can say that because the serpent didn't speak to Eve in the singular, but was speaking in the plural, which means that the sepent was addressing both Adam and Eve, not Eve alone. Also, Eve was replying to the serpent in the plural - replying on behalf of Adam. Finally, Genesis 3:6 states that Adam was with Eve at the time she was tempted and ate of the fruit.

The two verses you bring up need to be balanced by another verse: death entered the world through one man (Rom. 5:12, 18). If you take Scripture as a whole, you would find that it blames both Adam and Eve equally for sin and death. If you seperate it and take passages individually (proof-texting), then you come up with a completely different opinion that what Scripture teaches. Furthermore, you need to take the verses you quoted in context: Sirach talks about the dangers of choosing a bad woman as a wife, and uses the temptation as an example of how such a woman could lead to the ruin of the man's life; and Timothy is about leadership in the church - a woman, (according to this verse), cannot lead, since when Eve was leading (i.e. she spoke on behalf of Adam when she was talking to the serpent), it ended up bad.

_________________
"Our hearts are restless until they find rest in You, Lord" (St. Augustine, Confessions, I, 1).

"Pray gently and calmly,
Chant hymns with understanding and rhythm;
Then you will soar like a young eagle
High in the heavens"
+ St. Evagrius the Solitary, On Prayer, 82.

In Christ,
Bishoy
HCOC Member


+ To Protect and Preserve +

HCOC: Sing it! Live it! Love it!

Questions or comments on the copticheritage.org website? E-mail me!

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Truth.Seeker

posted on Jun 15, 2009 - 07:07 PM

Didn't speak to Eve in the singular?

And he said to the <u>woman</u>, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”

“<u>You</u> will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

What indication do you have that he was not speaking to Eve in the singular? To uphold that, you need to show "both of you" somewhere.

Through one man death entered the world because if Adam hadn't eaten of the fruit after Eve, there would have been no world. Hence, both of them needed to have eaten from the fruit, since Adam was the second to eat, it was through his act that death entered the world. This actually goes against the point you are making.

In other words: this is not imputing Eve's sin to Adam, it's imputing Adam's sin to the world.

Hence the "balancing" verse actually goes in the other direction (or most favorably to what you are saying, is neutral), then there needs to be no "balancing," and we should take the verses at their word.

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Biboboy

posted on Jun 16, 2009 - 05:21 AM

Agape,

Read it in Hebrew (and Greek). The serpent uses "you" in the plural.

Sure, the serpent "spoke to the woman," but that doesn't mean he wasn't addressing Adam at the same time.

Think about it: let's say you're with a friend who's shy and someone comes up to you and says to you: "you guys are awesome." Does that mean that your friend wasn't present and didn't hear the conversation? Don't you think your friend is included in the conversation because the third person is addressing you both with "you guys" (in the plural)?

_________________
"Our hearts are restless until they find rest in You, Lord" (St. Augustine, Confessions, I, 1).

"Pray gently and calmly,
Chant hymns with understanding and rhythm;
Then you will soar like a young eagle
High in the heavens"
+ St. Evagrius the Solitary, On Prayer, 82.

In Christ,
Bishoy
HCOC Member


+ To Protect and Preserve +

HCOC: Sing it! Live it! Love it!

Questions or comments on the copticheritage.org website? E-mail me!

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Truth.Seeker

posted on Jun 16, 2009 - 03:27 PM

Think about the plural "you" in Arabic as that's closer to the meaning in Hebrew than "you guys" in English. "Did God alokom that ..." It has much more to do with how many people God was speaking to when He was giving the commandment, than how many people the Serpent is talking to. This language is used in Arabic all the time. There is no theological importance of it whatsoever.

Assuming you're right and he was talking to both of them -

The verse right before this emphasizes that he was speaking to the WOMAN, not any indication of "them." Hence, there's some kind of relevance to that fact.

In any case, the subject is who sinned first. We take the direct verses on the subject (Sirach and St. Paul verses), then we only go further than that if other verses seem to contradict the direct verses. If it can be shown that a reasonable interpretation of those other verses don't contradict them, we stick with what the direct verses on the subject say.

We do NOT explain away the direct verses based on "context" and then buttress that with reading stuff into other verses. Further, in talking about "context," we NEVER use context to explain away the foundational reasoning behind what is said. In other words, we use context to talk about the application of the foundation, we don't use context to explain the foundation away.

E.g. In talking to a bunch of third graders, a teacher comments on a boy and says, "the boy doesn't know how to read because he never went to school." The fact is that he never went to school - that's set in stone. The only thing we can put context into is "well, is he completely illiterate, or can he not read at a certain school level, etc..." We don't say, well, it seems to me that the boy's reading may just fall short of third grade, therefore, I will conclude, based on context, that he went to school until the second grade.

Basically, this whole discussion is unnecessary because there's an irrefutable direct verse on the subject and "sinned at the same time" is directly contradicted by St. Paul.

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mikokiko

posted on Jun 17, 2009 - 06:22 AM

I really don't think the issue is Who sinned first, as if we can point our figures and blame either/or. Both had the chance to not sin and both blew it, whether Eve or Adam sinned first. I think it is true that Eve sinned first, but it means nothing, it doesn't make her any more guilty than Adam, because Adam disobeyed just as much as she did knowing the Law that God had decreed. That's why like Biboboy said, St. Paul speaks just as much about sin entering the world through man, as much as Eve being deceived.

Many in the eary church history, took these verses and applied them to women in a derogatory way to suggest that women were morally inferior to men in nature. Of course there were others like St. Clement who clearly stated otherwise, taking from St. Paul's verses on the equality of the Jew and Greek, the male and female, and the slave and the free, being all One in Christ. I think the discussion is becoming pointless from here. We know both were equally to blame, and we know who "technically" sinned first.

God Bless

Joined: Feb 11, 2003 | Posts: 1341

Truth.Seeker

posted on Jun 17, 2009 - 06:23 PM

"We know both were equally to blame, and we know who "technically" sinned first."

Agreed. My concern is with people changing the meaning of verses around in order to oppose the bad conclusions of others.

Joined: Feb 25, 2008 | Posts: 956

jonasania

posted on Jun 17, 2009 - 08:32 PM

I agree with Truthseeker, those verse:

Of the woman came the BEGINNING of sin, and through her we all die." (Sirach 25:24).

In another translation, "Sin BEGAN with a woman, and we all must die because of her." (Sirach 25:24)

And Adam was NOT the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. (1 Timothy 2:14)

you have to take those literally, and even God in the garden after she sinned he asks her

And the LORD God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”
The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”
(genesis 3:13)

Joined: Jan 16, 2009 | Posts: 37

lowlyman

posted on Jun 18, 2009 - 10:33 PM

does it really matter? we are in our predicaments b/c of our very own sins (and not those of adam or eve)!

Joined: Apr 04, 2006 | Posts: 288

tonyhabibi

posted on Jun 19, 2009 - 01:58 AM

look dude , the question is not does it really matter , because we know it doesnt , they both sinned , but all we are arguing for the sake of arguing is the technical aspect of this story . we know there is not real fruit that can come from the conversation or rather debate of who sinned first but rather we are doing it because of mere interest in the topic , so can everyone stop pointing out to all that their is no reason to debate this topic because trust me .. we know .

i stand by the notion that eve in a technical sense , sinned first , and adam followed.

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Biboboy

posted on Aug 18, 2009 - 01:45 AM

Agape,

Re-surfacing an old topic, but here's something interesting I found in St. Gregory the Theologian's writings:

"If you enquire into the worse - the woman sinned, and so did Adam. The serpent deceived them both, and one was not found to be stronger and the other weaker. But also consider the better: Christ saves both by His Passion. Was He made flesh for Man? so He was also for the Woman. Did He die for the Man? The Woman also is saved by His death. He is called the seed of David; and so perhaps you think Man is honoured; but He is also born of a Virgin,and this is on the Woman's side" (On the Gospel Text: 'When Jesus Had Finished These Words,' Mt. 19: 1ff).

I've highlighted the important part concerning the topic of this forum.

_________________
"Our hearts are restless until they find rest in You, Lord" (St. Augustine, Confessions, I, 1).

"Pray gently and calmly,
Chant hymns with understanding and rhythm;
Then you will soar like a young eagle
High in the heavens"
+ St. Evagrius the Solitary, On Prayer, 82.

In Christ,
Bishoy
HCOC Member


+ To Protect and Preserve +

HCOC: Sing it! Live it! Love it!

Questions or comments on the copticheritage.org website? E-mail me!

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Truth.Seeker

posted on Aug 18, 2009 - 03:45 AM

I don't think anyone thought it was the easter bunny who deceived Adam.

Joined: Feb 25, 2008 | Posts: 956

Biboboy

posted on Aug 18, 2009 - 06:20 AM

Of course you'd use sarcasm to cover-up the fact that you were wrong.

_________________
"Our hearts are restless until they find rest in You, Lord" (St. Augustine, Confessions, I, 1).

"Pray gently and calmly,
Chant hymns with understanding and rhythm;
Then you will soar like a young eagle
High in the heavens"
+ St. Evagrius the Solitary, On Prayer, 82.

In Christ,
Bishoy
HCOC Member


+ To Protect and Preserve +

HCOC: Sing it! Live it! Love it!

Questions or comments on the copticheritage.org website? E-mail me!

Joined: Sep 28, 2004 | Posts: 755