Truth.Seeker
posted on Jun 05, 2010 - 10:09 PM
Pardon the non-ending nature of my posts on this thread, but as I read Patristics, I like to share things I come across that touch upon whatever topics I'm discussing/have discussed:
From St. Basil the Great:
They, then, that were sealed by the Spirit unto the day of redemption, and preserve pure and undiminished the first fruits which they received of the Spirit, are they that shall hear the words “well done thou good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things.” In like manner they which have grieved the Holy Spirit by the wickedness of their ways, or have not wrought for Him that gave to them, shall be deprived of what they have received, their grace being transferred to others; or, according to one of the evangelists, they shall even be wholly cut asunder,—the cutting asunder meaning complete separation from the Spirit. The body is not divided, part being delivered to chastisement, and part let off; for when a whole has sinned it were like the old fables, and unworthy of a righteous judge, for only the half to suffer chastisement. Nor is the soul cut in two,—that soul the whole of which possesses the sinful affection throughout, and works the wickedness in co-operation with the body. The cutting asunder, as I have observed, is the separation for aye of the soul from the Spirit.
For now, although the Spirit does not suffer admixture with the unworthy, He nevertheless does seem in a manner to be present with them that have once been sealed, awaiting the salvation which follows on their conversion; but then He will be wholly cut off from the soul that has defiled His grace. For this reason “In Hell there is none that maketh confession; in death none that remembereth God,” because the succour of the Spirit is no longer present. How then is it possible to conceive that the judgment is accomplished without the Holy Spirit, wherein the word points out that He is Himself the prize of the righteous, when instead of the earnest is given that which is perfect, and the first condemnation of sinners, when they are deprived of that which they seem to have?
- On the Holy Spirit
Anyway, that's how I will always think of hell - not agony by experiencing God, but agony by being completely abandoned by Him. In either case, His Divine Essence is administering the due punishment, so I didn't dwell much on this point. The bolded part is what I kept stressing by my before death/after death distinction.
Folks, the more I randomly read from the Fathers, the more I realize way too many people either misquote them or are extremely ignorant of them. So, I implore you, don't go to a random EO article online, find a bunch of quotes on fire, and start saying St. so and so must have taught such and such. Here's a quote from St. Basil about the sin/death dichotomy:
From St. Basil the Great:in baptism two ends were proposed; on the one hand, the destroying of the body of sin, that it may never bear fruit unto death; on the other hand, our living unto the Spirit, and having our fruit in holiness; the water receiving the body as in a tomb figures death, while the Spirit pours in the quickening power, renewing our souls from the deadness of sin unto their original life.
- On the Holy Spirit
Since Pope Shenouda III's book "Salvation in the Orthodox Concept" seems to be a favorite for people to disagree with (they whine about his focus on death), having read it several times, and now reading St. Basil's writings on the Holy Spirit, it's as if H.H. was direclty quoting St. Basil. For example:
From St. Basil the Great: ... so that the man who is being saved through imitation of Christ receives that old adoption. For perfection of life the imitation of Christ is necessary, not only in the example of gentleness, lowliness, and long suffering set us in His life, but also of His actual death.
and
From St. Basil the Great: For just as in the case of runners who turn and take the second course, a kind of halt and pause intervenes between the movements in the opposite direction, so also in making a change in lives it seemed necessary for death to come as mediator between the two, ending all that goes before, and beginning all that comes after. How then do we achieve the descent into hell? By imitating, through baptism, the burial of Christ. For the bodies of the baptized are, as it were, buried in the water. Baptism then symbolically signifies the putting off of the works of the flesh; as the apostle says, ye were “circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; buried with him in baptism.” And there is, as it were, a cleansing of the soul from the filth that has grown on it from the carnal mind, as it is written, “Thou shalt wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.” On this account we do not, as is the fashion of the Jews, wash ourselves at each defilement, but own the baptism of salvation to be one. For there the death on behalf of the world is one, and one the resurrection of the dead, whereof baptism is a type. For this cause the Lord, who is the Dispenser of our life, gave us the covenant of baptism, containing a type of life and death, for the water fulfils the image of death, and the Spirit gives us the earnest of life.
Joined: Feb 25, 2008 | Posts: 961
. Maybe that's how God will resolve our argument. "You want an answer? Let me show you." 