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The Nature Of Christ

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Iqbal

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posted on May 02, 2009 - 11:36 AM

Christ is Risen

It is on many levels beyond that of the foundational Christological issues that it is a real blessing that our Church did not follow in the footsteps of our Chalcedonian brothers in developing and formulating a dyophysitic conception of the Incarnate Word's wills. Many Chalcedonian Orthodox theologians are today trying to counter various non-Christological ideologies which conflict with the general Orthodox Christian worldview and which yet ironically stem from such developments and formulations.

For example, popular Western (both Christian and secular) understandings of "freedom"--subsets of popular western (again, both Christian and secular) understandings of "human rights" in general--which stand with great tension to Orthodox anthropology and soteriology are very much influenced, even if without conscious recognition as such, by a dyophysitic conception of Christ's wills. An emphasis on distinguishing between the human and divine wills in Christ, and hence a methodology in which each is to be understood in its own right apart from their essential unity, in turn gave birth to an emphasis on the freedom of Christ's human will to submit to the Father's will. Some (though not all) inheritors of this Chalcedonian legacy thus conceived of the potential of Christ to sin and deemed such integral to the doctrine of man's salvation. With Christ upheld as the perfect example of what it means to be human, human freedom thus ultimately came to be conceived as that which admits the ability to make 'wrong/sinful/erroneous' choices (at least insofar as doing so does not inflict harm upon anyone else). This concept of human freedom was finally exalted to the level of a 'right' to which all humans are entitled.

Putting aside the philosophical problems associated with liberalism (Christian and secular), the fact remains that it is another in a long line of post-enlightenment movements which, whether consciously (in the case of the openly secular expressions of it) or not (in the case of the purported Christian expressions of it), works towards leading humanity further astray from the path of God.

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mikokiko

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posted on May 03, 2009 - 09:15 PM

Iqbal, so I guess that means that the quote from Pope John Paul at the end of my posts is the result of the philosophical remnants of dypohysitism?

God Bless

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mikokiko

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posted on May 07, 2009 - 01:10 AM

Care to reply Iqbal?

GB

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Iqbal

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posted on May 07, 2009 - 09:56 PM

Christ is Risen

Hi Mikokiko,

I’m not inclined to assess the ethics of freedom of anyone based on a single quote let alone that of a highly reputable figure in Christian memory; and I generally do not know enough regarding how if at all the late Roman pontiff sits within the Western Christian existentialist tradition to comment in the first place.

In any event, it’s really beside the point.

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mikokiko

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posted on May 08, 2009 - 01:16 AM

Thanks for the reply. I don't think that dyophisitism has necessarily influenced the Western view of our rights to Freedom. Actually many of the founding fathers of America took the view that Pope John Paul II voiced.

God Bless

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Truth.Seeker

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posted on May 08, 2009 - 03:27 AM

We have an extremely reliable source about freedom -

2 Corinthians 3:17
Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

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mikokiko

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posted on May 08, 2009 - 07:28 AM

Truth.Seeker, that passage is speaking about liberty from sin, not just any kind of freedom. We are talking about the political philosophy of Liberalism, such as is in the American Declaration of Independence, written by Thomas Jefferson, which says: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

God Bless

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Iqbal

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posted on May 08, 2009 - 09:35 AM

Christ is Risen

Hi Mikokiko,

Actually, your response to TS unwittingly demonstrates that which is the precise problem with Western (even Christian) liberalism---the nature (social/political) vs grace dichotomy (which, as I’ve suggested, is an unorthodox, even if unintended and unforeseen, consequence of the very doctrinal approach responsible for dyophysitism). This is the very problem with the human rights movement; it roots the social imperative to counter human injustice in a call to political and legal action, rather than a call to repentance and humility. Consequently, it defines freedom in terms of self-determination, which always admits the possibility of error/sin even if it limits its scope.

My views on these matters as presented in this thread are not the product of speculative musing; they are based on substantial research (which will go towards an upcoming article that I am working on for my website) and are significantly inspired and directed by the freedom-ethics of Fr Pishoy Kamel and a world renowned Armenian Orthodox scholar on the philosophy of ethics, Vigen Guroian.

Since your last response to me insists on the presumption made in the post before that, viz. that Pope John Paul’s conception of freedom is Orthodox, I will openly state that on its face it does not support an Orthodox conception of freedom, as it too clearly defines freedom in terms of self-determination. It reeks of the existentialist mentality to which Orthodoxy is generally opposed. But as I insisted, I do not think it appropriate to draw anything conclusive on the freedom-ethics of a reputable figure of the Christian community without having read something more comprehensive and substantial than a tag-line quoted in a forum member’s profile. And I am not particularly eager to pursue that kind of research because a) whether or not the late Roman Pontiff’s ethics of freedom is compatible with the Orthodox worldview is a question not particularly relevant to my post, and b) I am not particularly interested in the matter in any event.

As I do not have the time to participate in a full-fledged discussion on the above issues, and given that they are not particularly relevant to my main point or the generally intended orientation of this thread, I choose to respectfully bow out of this discussion forthwith. I would appreciate the courtesy of not being pushed to reply in the manner I *felt* I was so pushed to reply in the first place (as well-intentioned as I’m sure you were--I know you're only eager for good and edifying discussion). The only reason I finally chose to respond at all (even after you publically requested a response subsequent to my very clear expression to you via PM that I was not interested) was because I did not want to offend or hurt you by leading you, or anyone for that matter, to believe that I do not respect your opinion or appreciate your contribution to this forum--because I sincerely do.

Best wishes.

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Truth.Seeker

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posted on May 08, 2009 - 04:09 PM

Well, yeah, Jefferson was completely wrong, since he was applying all of this to political autonomy and lower taxes (the Gospels couldn't have been more clear about what our Lord Jesus Christ thought about those).

I'm pretty sure John Paul II meant it in the 1 Cor 3 way, "all unrighteousness is sin" - unrighteousness is falling short what we "ought" to do (also, "to them who know to do good, and do not do it, to them it is sin"), doing what's good is what we "ought" to do. The only problem I see with it is that, "what one wants" is presumably what one "ought to do," since St. Paul said that "I do that which I will not to do" (and he was talking about sin). I think this is where Iqbal's point could be crystallized (and this is not an invitation to Iqbal to come in). If I'm wrong, I request that Iqbal rebuke me in a PM so that he doesn't have to come to a thread he decided to stay out of Smile .

Believe it or not, I read a Supreme Court decision in which one of the justices said that property rights are BINDING on the Creator. Even my non-very-religious (I think) professor said: "did this guy never read the Old Testament?" Wow.

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mikokiko

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posted on May 12, 2009 - 07:58 AM

Truth.Seeker,
the idea of the equality of humans in the philosophy of liberalism is older than Jefferson. Most would trace it back to John Locke. However it is quite possible that he used this philosophy as a way to gain support for lower taxes and gaining autonomy, but I think its doubtful.

Iqbal, if you are not going to come back to post to this thread I am not sure if I should address your points. I was going to bring up a number of questions rather than points, since I know that I am not as learned as you are. I will PM them to you if you are willing to respond through that.

God Bless

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Truth.Seeker

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posted on May 12, 2009 - 08:52 AM

Yes Miko, I took all this in the good old days, Locke's "property" became Jefferson's "happiness" a year after a war had started because of "property." I'm more of a Hamilton fan anyway. In any case, I doubt Jefferson knew what Dyophisitism or Miaphysitism even meant, so this is completely useless of a discussion (and I don't say that with any malice at all Smile). I personally don't care how people emerge with philosophies - if they're not talking about Christianity, they can say anything they want Smile.

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