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Christ's Mediation

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etopia

posted on Jul 20, 2008 - 12:19 AM

Dear All,

I am an Orthodox Christian. In my discussion with some protestants and reading of some of their writings (for example: http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Hebrews/hebrews_035.htm) I have come to understand that they believe Christ's Mediation is not limited to his eternal mediation on the Cross (as I also accept), but also that they attest for Christ to intercede ( more explicitly to pray) for us in heaven now, right at this moment. (i.e after his resurrection).

They have some Bible versus as evidence for this such as Rom 8:34 and specially Hebrews 7:25.

My question:
1. What does the Coptic church (and other Orthodox churches) believe regarding this

2. It is my belief that Christ's mediation is done "once for all" on the cross and He is now sitting on the Right Hand of God awaiting to appear for His Second Coming. He doesn't right at this moment ask God the Father "Father forgive them" as these people say since He has done a "one final (perfect)" redemptive work on the Cross. If the Church's teaching is the later (which I hold), how are the previous versus of the Bible interpreted (Rom 8:34 and Hebrews 7:25)?

3. St. Paul in general speaks of a heavenly place (temple) where Christ entered. Is this to be taken literally or does it have any other meaning? For me it is not literal (For instance, the appostel says a curtain and interprets it as Christ's Body-Hebrews 10:2: "through the curtain, that is, his body")

I really appreciate it if anyone tries to help me with this. I am looking for authoritative church sources (i.e, not just personal opinion).

May God bless you all. Amen.

Joined: Jul 19, 2008 | Posts: 2

lowlyman

posted on Jul 22, 2008 - 12:11 AM

I did not find much authoritative information on the subject on the Web. Take a look at the article below from EO sources.

http://www.antiochian.org/node/17818

lowlyman
From etopia:Dear All,

I am an Orthodox Christian. In my discussion with some protestants and reading of some of their writings (for example: http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Hebrews/hebrews_035.htm) I have come to understand that they believe Christ's Mediation is not limited to his eternal mediation on the Cross (as I also accept), but also that they attest for Christ to intercede ( more explicitly to pray) for us in heaven now, right at this moment. (i.e after his resurrection).

They have some Bible versus as evidence for this such as Rom 8:34 and specially Hebrews 7:25.

My question:
1. What does the Coptic church (and other Orthodox churches) believe regarding this

2. It is my belief that Christ's mediation is done "once for all" on the cross and He is now sitting on the Right Hand of God awaiting to appear for His Second Coming. He doesn't right at this moment ask God the Father "Father forgive them" as these people say since He has done a "one final (perfect)" redemptive work on the Cross. If the Church's teaching is the later (which I hold), how are the previous versus of the Bible interpreted (Rom 8:34 and Hebrews 7:25)?

3. St. Paul in general speaks of a heavenly place (temple) where Christ entered. Is this to be taken literally or does it have any other meaning? For me it is not literal (For instance, the appostel says a curtain and interprets it as Christ's Body-Hebrews 10:2: "through the curtain, that is, his body")

I really appreciate it if anyone tries to help me with this. I am looking for authoritative church sources (i.e, not just personal opinion).

May God bless you all. Amen.

Joined: Apr 04, 2006 | Posts: 242

Truth.Seeker

posted on Jul 22, 2008 - 01:19 AM

Can you share what the point of the argument is? I.e. if these verses say what they are saying they say, so what? (My guess is that it's either to say priesthood, as we know it, isn't necessary, or that intercession of saints isn't necessary?).

On a cursory review, Hebrews 7:25 doesn't really show that He's interceding for us now. For those unfamiliar with the verse:

Hebrews 7:25: Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. This could easily mean that He'll be alive when those who come to God through Him die, so He'll be able to save them.

Romans 8:34: Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. Think about it. When are people condemned? After their death. If anything, this verse's context is after death.

______

My understanding of things (and I'm not a Coptic authority - but you can take my thoughts for what they are worth to you) would tell me it doesn't make sense for Christ to actually be praying for the forgiveness of our sins right now. Who judges us? It is Christ Himself. If He prays for the forgiveness of our sins right now, He wouldn't be praying to the Father as He did when He was on the cross. He would be praying to Himself.

Before His death for us, it was different as He hadn't paid the price for our sins and we did not have to account to Him at that point. So, He asked the Father to forgive those who were crucifying Him.

______

If you share what the point they're trying to make is, I can tell you more, as a lot of it are the same old arguments (from both sides) recycled over and over and over and over.

Joined: Feb 25, 2008 | Posts: 432

copt07

posted on Jul 22, 2008 - 04:31 AM

This may be a little of the topic, but deals with Christ's mediation.

From Luke 22:31-32:
And the Lord said,“Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat. But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail; and when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren.

When I read this, it reminded me of the story of Job--specifically,when Satan went to God to be allowed to tempt Job. Regardless, several other questions came to mind.

If Christ did not pray for St. Peter would he have returned to "strengthen [the] brethren?'

Does Christ continue to pray for us as He did for St. Peter?

Peace

Joined: Apr 17, 2006 | Posts: 14

lowlyman

posted on Jul 22, 2008 - 09:43 PM

I don't find it strange to think that Christ intercedes for us in the same way that the Holy Spirit maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered when we are praying. Otherwise, making intercession for us would be the function of our Lord the Holy Spirit only.

I guess I agree with trut. seeker that we need to know what is the point of the debate.
From copt07:This may be a little of the topic, but deals with Christ's mediation.

From Luke 22:31-32:
And the Lord said,“Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat. But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail; and when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren.

When I read this, it reminded me of the story of Job--specifically,when Satan went to God to be allowed to tempt Job. Regardless, several other questions came to mind.

If Christ did not pray for St. Peter would he have returned to "strengthen [the] brethren?'

Does Christ continue to pray for us as He did for St. Peter?

Peace

Joined: Apr 04, 2006 | Posts: 242

etopia

posted on Jul 22, 2008 - 09:48 PM

Thank you very much lowlyman. The link you posted was helpful (The main point of the writing on the page was that the Hebrews 7:25 verse has got to do with Who Christ Is than What He Does, right?)

Truth.Seeker, thank you very much. Yes you are right..., they most often present this case to say "We don't need other intercessors as Christ is our (only) mediator". And when they present these verses as evidence they interpret them as I indicated before.

I also wish you could try to answer the third question I asked based on some Bible concordances of the Church you might have read or teachings of Church fathers.

God bless.

The Gospel of John 16: "These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father. 26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you: 27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God."

Joined: Jul 19, 2008 | Posts: 2

Truth.Seeker

posted on Jul 22, 2008 - 10:10 PM

I'm not sure what your third question is. Per Revelations, there's a lot of stuff going on up there. Whether this means "temple" or not - who knows. I don't see how the question relates to the general discussion? Please let me know.

Unless you mean the John 16 verses you just posted?

Joined: Feb 25, 2008 | Posts: 432

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