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Truth.Seeker

posted on Jul 11, 2008 - 08:18 PM

Miko -

I believe there are issues that have nothing to do with Christianity. I.e. whether I ate a ta3meya or a fool sandwich today, especially if I just grabbed the first thing that I saw. Sure, if you're "creative" enough you can invent stuff. "Grabbing the first sandwich is a sign of impatience and uneasiness, a believer in Christ should not be uneasy." vs. "Thou shalt not eat by bread alone, so I grabbed the first sandwich because food is unimportant." vs. "I am fasting, I saw ta3meya, I didn't know what else was offered, so I went with it." You can go on forever and in the end it becomes about why the person subjectively picked his food.

The Bible already tells us if you do something that's alright while thinking it's wrong, it's a sin for you. So, if the person didn't think there was anything wrong in taking the ta3meya over the fool, he's fine as long as there's some devious reason for doing that, e.g. taking the last sandwich so the person behind him doesn't get the ta3meya.

Let's get real.

Tony -

Read Romans 13. It has nothing to do with "electoral vote," it has to do with the governing authority. Even if the government is run by a dictator, your Christian duty is to follow the law. So, the difference is an individual's actions vs. the state's actions.

Let me give you an example (in the form of a question). If someone strikes you, what should you do? Stand and take it. If someone strikes a child infront of you, what should you do? Say the child should stand and take it, or actually do something to help the child?

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the_youngest

posted on Jul 11, 2008 - 08:39 PM

Truth.Seeker

we have all already agreed that the state is wrong if it contradicts Christianity. So, what do you aim to establish by bringing up this passage

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Truth.Seeker

posted on Jul 11, 2008 - 08:43 PM

I aim to establish that the power the state has is higher than the power an individual has, and therefore, not everything restricted for an individual is restricted for the state.

Joined: Feb 25, 2008 | Posts: 432

mikokiko

posted on Jul 12, 2008 - 02:18 AM

Truth.Seeker, if you are asking me whether Christianity says something about whether we should eat Ta3miyya or fool, or Dog or feces, no it says nothing about the matter. Because there is nothing to be said. But at every second of our lives, every millisecond, we are making moral decisions of our own will. As you even saw, there is nothing INHERENTLY wrong with killing. Killing is good in circumstance A, where you save 300 people, and bad in circumstance B, where you murder your brother out of hatred. The physical act itself has no moral worth. Its the mind that introduces that dimension to the human being, as we are composed of body, mind (or spirit), and soul. Animals are not. So we cannot make moral judgments on a Fox mating with another fox that it has never seen in its lifetime, or killing its prey. Not one action of their's makes a difference, because they do not choose. They have no free will, and no faculty of reason to be able to discriminate between the Good and the Bad. We do. And though one action committed by God may be Good in circumstance A, it would be the most horrible abomination if we committed it in circumstance B. Remember when I said that the true virtues and sins are really spiritual ones? Well, that's because they are not of the body, but of the mind. Therefore, yes there is nothing INHERENTLY wrong about killing, just as there is nothing INHERENTLY good or bad about choosing a sandwich. Its what goes on in the mind, its all about the intentions we have (like committing adultery simply in thought). That's why if I take something from someone, but I do it in a way where no harm is meant, and no hatred, anger, dishonesty, bitterness, or selfishness is felt, I really commit no sin, as St. Paul will tell you about eating meat served to idols. If I do it in hatred, anger, dishonesty, and bitterness, then I have sinned against the person who I took something from. The physical action of taking itself SAYS NOTHING. Its about whether you are like God or not. God was never in the EXACT situation you are in. But we are told to be like God in Spirit (which is of course done through the Body). So yes, there is nothing INHERENTLY good or bad about taking a sandwich. There is something wrong about taking a fool sandwich because you like it more than ta3miyya, by stealing it, or choosing ta3miyya because of my gluttonous addiction to it. And we are ALWAYS, and CONSTANTLY in these situations, no matter how insignificant they might be and seem to us.

Sorry for the horrible writing, I had to finish this up quickly.

God Bless

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AMoussa01

posted on Jul 14, 2008 - 04:43 AM

From Truth.Seeker:
Tony -

Read Romans 13. It has nothing to do with "electoral vote," it has to do with the governing authority. Even if the government is run by a dictator, your Christian duty is to follow the law. So, the difference is an individual's actions vs. the state's actions.

Your Christian duty is to follow the law, except if the law is contrary to what you believe is right. Killing for the sake of punishment is not right in any sense or form.

The Bible may not explicitly say that "there should not be death penalty" but we, as Christians, are expected to know that this is something wrong; it is contrary to the love that our whole faith is based on. By the way, the Bible says nothing about stem cell research either...does that mean its alright?

From Truth.Seeker:Let me give you an example (in the form of a question). If someone strikes you, what should you do? Stand and take it. If someone strikes a child infront of you, what should you do? Say the child should stand and take it, or actually do something to help the child?

I really do not see where you are going with this...I would help the child obviously.

GB
Tony

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mikokiko

posted on Jul 14, 2008 - 04:46 AM

Assigning Capital Punishment does not mean you are hating the person who is dying. Its called believing in retributive justice.

God Bless

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AMoussa01

posted on Jul 14, 2008 - 05:33 AM

I am aware that you do not have to hate the person to kill him/her but it still does not make it right. By saying that you believe in retributive justice, you are stating that you believe in a proportionate punishment to the crime correct? This is exactly the same thing as the old testament rule of "an eye for an eye."

GB
Tony

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Truth.Seeker

posted on Jul 14, 2008 - 08:51 AM

"Killing for the sake of punishment is not right in any sense or form."

If only St. Peter had gotten the memo before he had Ananias and Sopphira drop dead for LYING to him.

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Truth.Seeker

posted on Jul 14, 2008 - 08:56 AM

Well, here, let's get to the meat - are you saying the Coptic Orthodox Church is wrong on the death penalty issue?

Next time you are at a convention, ask a bishop the Church's stance - he'll tell you what I said above. Then you should tell him he's wrong.

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mikokiko

posted on Jul 14, 2008 - 11:47 PM

Truth.Seeker, the Coptic Orthodox Church has no positions on the death penalty, and neither condones nor condemns it. It has no stance on the issue. Therefore whatever a Bishop or layman might say about it is pure speculation, nothing more, and nothing less. If a Bishop says it is good, he is saying this not based on doctrine, but on Scriptural understanding and by living in the Sacramental Skopos of the Orthodox Church. We are free to disagree with even episcopal speculation, we are not free, if we wish to belong to the One Body of Christ, to disagree with Orthodox theological doctrine.

God Bless

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the_youngest

posted on Jul 15, 2008 - 01:48 AM

Assigning Capital Punishment does not mean you are hating the person who is dying. Its called believing in retributive justice.

If God was using what you call "retributive justice" with you without any mercy, do you think you would be saved. I don't necessarily mean you, but all of humanity. In every mass we say a million times the three words "LORD HAVE MERCY", and every day we pray and say in the Our Father "forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us". How come you want mercy from God but are not willing to give it to others. If you don't forgive others, God won't forgive you.

In John 8, there was a woman caught in adultery, and everyone was ready to stone her. And then they asked Jesus and told Him "Moses, in the law, commanded us that such should be stoned. But what do You say?" Then Jesus answered and said "He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first".

There are many things to be learned from this story that pertain to the subject being discussed. When the pharisees ask Jesus, they say that Moses commanded that such should be stoned. Moses could represent what the world says and what the state says about capital punishment. Jesus therefore represents the Christian beliefs and perspectives on capital punishment. Notice how Jesus says, "He who is without sin" and not, 'He who has not committed adultery'. Thus we are all sinners and have no right to judge or stone anyone for WHATEVER sin they committed, for that is only God's decision who is without sin.

Pray for me

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Iqbal

posted on Jul 15, 2008 - 04:50 AM

"Sacramental Skopos of the Church"? Please don't use terms like "skopos" if you don't know how to use them in their proper context. What you said makes absolutely no sense...such nonsense is but a microcosm of this entire thread...What a waste of webspace. To those who are actually serious about this subject, please PM me and i'll refer you to published works by those who actually know what they're talking about. There is no "episcopal speculation" here, only lay ignorance and foolishness.

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AMoussa01

posted on Jul 15, 2008 - 06:52 AM

From Truth.Seeker:Well, here, let's get to the meat - are you saying the Coptic Orthodox Church is wrong on the death penalty issue?

Next time you are at a convention, ask a bishop the Church's stance - he'll tell you what I said above. Then you should tell him he's wrong.

Well first of all, I never said that I know more than any bishop. I was merely playing devil's advocate, just as I stated in my previous posts in order to better understand why our church has this stance. So far the arguement is weak...

GB
Tony

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Biboboy

posted on Jul 15, 2008 - 04:07 PM

Agape,

If you live in a country (like Canada) where Capital Punishment is frowned upon and is never practiced, the laypeople and the bishops will talk against it, as the society's ethics is against it.

And because I live in a country that does not agree with capital punishment, I naturally don't agree with capital punishment. I believe it's unethical, I would oppose it no matter what others think about its usefulness to society, and I would bring up theological support for my position against capital punishment - and that theological support is quite simple: no one has the right to take away human life, which is given by the Holy Spirit (the Giver of Life), and no one has the right to kill someone created in the image of God, who, like everyone else in the world, is struggling because of sin to become in the likeness of God through grace.

_________________
"Our hearts are restless until they find rest in You, Lord" (St. Augustine, Confessions, I, 1).

"Pray gently and calmly,
Chant hymns with understanding and rhythm;
Then you will soar like a young eagle
High in the heavens"
+ St. Evagrius the Solitary, On Prayer, 82.

In Christ,
Bishoy
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Truth.Seeker

posted on Jul 15, 2008 - 04:17 PM

I don't argue facts. With respect to facts, someone is either right or wrong. Mikokiko - you are wrong. The Coptic Church, in its 2000 year history, has not rejected the death penalty. That is a stance.

Tony - going back to my Empire State Building example. There can be no "weak argument" if there's nothing to argue against. Establish why capital punishment is wrong (requires more than "individuals can't murder"), THEN look at the response. I'm not going to go out of my way trying to prove flying pigs don't exist.

Bishoy - as I said before, apparently St. Peter never got the memo. He had two people drop dead infront of him because they lied.

I challenge the people here, who don't know their facts, to find me a single Coptic authority that says capital punishment is absolutely wrong.

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mikokiko

posted on Jul 15, 2008 - 06:37 PM

Truth.Seeker, when I said stance, I clearly meant that it neither spoke on whether it is politically moral or immoral. She has neither accepted nor rejected it.

Iqbal, I used the word skopos to mean the environment, or the atmosphere in the Church, the living in the Church, and being informed and influenced by Her teachings by being revived through Her sacraments. If I am wrong about this definition, please feel free to correct me and ignore what I wrote.

Thirdly, Truth.Seeker, no one killed Ananias or Sapphira, they both died. St. Peter didn't draw the sword on them like he did on the servant of the High Priest (which Christ condemned), but where struck dead. We all at times will suffer from natural causes, whether resulting in death, or temporary illnesses. I do not see how this is different. All is from God.

If Capital Punishment is right, it is right, in that it serves justice, and stops crime from continuing on. If A is killed, then B, and C are saved, and rather than destroying life, we have actually saved it. If A is killed, then B is saved. This is STILL fair, because we have the option to save either life, and we have chosen to the save the innocent one.

If we care about saving life, then we will use Capital punishment, both to put fear and terror into the hearts who dare to entertain the idea of murder itself, and to save the lives of all those that would be killed. Remember killing in and of itself is not a sin. Murder is a sin. If we can stop murder, thereby saving life, then killing in circumstance A is not bad as it is in B, where it is murder, and in fact saves life. That is why I think Capital Punishment should be enforced.

We will all have a point in our lives when the work of repentance will have to come to an end. We ALL die, in different ways. When we know about our deaths, we are more likely to be repentant than those who do not. These people are given the time to repent before their deaths, capital punishment does not happen spontaneously. They know when there life will come to an end on this earth, and one day it will be history.

God Bless

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Truth.Seeker

posted on Jul 15, 2008 - 09:09 PM

Anything that the Church accepts is moral, unless the Church accepts things that are immoral. "Moral" is the wrong word. The question is whether it's politically prudent - a question not to be answered by the Church, but by the state.

"We all at times will suffer from natural causes, whether resulting in death, or temporary illnesses." Really? Right before they died, St. Peter mentioned to them why their punishment is coming.

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the_youngest

posted on Jul 15, 2008 - 09:58 PM

We will all have a point in our lives when the work of repentance will have to come to an end. We ALL die, in different ways.

Miko, this is true; but that point in our lives should only be decided by God and not by any human.

Truth.Seeker, you said "Right before they died, St. Peter mentioned to them why their punishment is coming". OK, but this was still decided by God. St. Peter knew what was coming, but it still came from God.

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Biboboy

posted on Jul 15, 2008 - 10:01 PM

Agape,

Just for the info, the example of Ananias and Sapphira is a bad example to use to argue for capital punishment. Their penalty wasn't because of a crime, but lying to God; and their judgement wasn't by the State, so their death was not, by definition, capital punishment. If anything, the story argues that judgement and death to those who do evil belong to God alone, and not to the State. Therefore, you cannot use this biblical story to support your opinion on capital punishment.

_________________
"Our hearts are restless until they find rest in You, Lord" (St. Augustine, Confessions, I, 1).

"Pray gently and calmly,
Chant hymns with understanding and rhythm;
Then you will soar like a young eagle
High in the heavens"
+ St. Evagrius the Solitary, On Prayer, 82.

In Christ,
Bishoy
HCOC Member


+ To Protect and Preserve +

HCOC: Sing it! Live it! Love it!

Questions or comments on the copticheritage.org website? E-mail me!

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Fr.Kyrillos

posted on Jul 15, 2008 - 10:20 PM

I am not advocating a position...but a thought occurrs to me when I pray the Litany of the Sick. I wonder if we should distinguish between what the church might grant is a right of the state versus what the desire of the church is for the imprisoned soul....

Lex orandi, lex credendi ???

Litany of the Sick

You have visited them with mercies and compassion, heal them.
Take away from them, and from us all, all sickness and all disease; the spirit of sickness, chase away.
Those who have long lain in sickness, raise up and comfort.
Those who are afflicted by unclean spirits, set them all free.
Those who are in prisons or dungeons, those who are in exile or captivity, and those who are held in bitter bondage, O Lord, set them all free and have mercy upon them.
For You are He who loosens the bound and uplifts the fallen; the hope of those who have no hope and the help of those who have no helper; the comfort of the fainthearted; the harbor of those in the storm.
All souls that are distressed or bound, grant them mercy, O Lord; grant them rest, grant them refreshment, grant them grace, grant them help, grant them salvation, grant them the forgiveness of their sins and iniquities.
As for us also, O Lord, the maladies of our souls, heal; and those of our bodies too, do cure.
O You, the true physician of our souls and our bodies, the Bishop of all flesh, visit us with Your salvation.

Fr. Kyrillos

_________________
Our continual mistake is that we do not concentrate upon the present day, the actual hour, of our life: we live in the past or in the future; we are continually expecting the coming of some special moment when our life will unfold itself in its full significance. And we do not notice that life is flowing like water through our fingers, sifting like precious grain from a loosely fastened bag.

Constantly, each day, each hour, God is sending us people, circumstances, tasks, which should mark the beginning of our renewal; yet we pay them no attention, and thus continually we resist God’s will for us. Indeed, how can God help us? Only by sending us in our daily life certain people, and certain coincidences of circumstance. If we accepted every hour of our life as the hour of God’s will for us, as the decisive, most important, unique hour of our life -- what sources of joy, love, strength, as yet hidden from us, would spring from the depths of our soul!

Fr. Alexander Elchaninov, Diary of a Russian Priest

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mikokiko

posted on Jul 15, 2008 - 10:32 PM

Truth.Seeker, the Church has said it is acceptable to not have capital punishment, and it also has said that it is acceptable to have it. It has no real stance on the issue. The Church does not speak for what kind of punishment the state should prescribe. The Church tells us which things are sins.

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Truth.Seeker

posted on Jul 16, 2008 - 01:09 AM

The example of Ananias and Sapphira is to disabuse you of the notion that killing is NEVER right. It is not to prove to you that the state can have capital punishment.

Miko, if executing someone on deathrow was a sin, the state wouldn't say it's acceptable to have capital punishment. It is because capital punishment is not immoral that the Church can say it's acceptable.

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AMoussa01

posted on Jul 16, 2008 - 03:53 AM

From Truth.Seeker:The example of Ananias and Sapphira is to disabuse you of the notion that killing is NEVER right. It is not to prove to you that the state can have capital punishment..

St. Peter did not take action for their lying, that was God as was already explained. Second thing is that, you need to realize the situation before you can state whether killing is right or wrong. For example, If you are doing it because you are in a war, then God will not punish you because you are defending your country and your life. However, if one were to kill because he/she/state believe that it is the right thing to do (considering their crimes), than that would be ludicrious because

1) Christ was against the whole notion of "eye for an eye"
2) It should not be "our" decision as to whether a person lives or dies; it should be God's.
3) There is no mercy in it, no act of love.

Miko, you said:
"If Capital Punishment is right, it is right, in that it serves justice, and stops crime from continuing on. If A is killed, then B, and C are saved, and rather than destroying life, we have actually saved it. If A is killed, then B is saved. This is STILL fair, because we have the option to save either life, and we have chosen to the save the innocent one. "

Captial punishment is not the only way to stop crimes. If instead of killing the person, you lock him/her up in a secure prison, than you are still protecting B and C. I think this is a better route...

GB
Tony

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Truth.Seeker

posted on Jul 16, 2008 - 01:00 PM

"For example, If you are doing it because you are in a war, then God will not punish you because you are defending your country and your life."

Tony - are you serious? Do you get that you should "defend your life" from turning your cheek or from the Apostles' eagerness to let themselves be killed? Where does it say in the NT you can take life to defend your country?

It's either all or nothing - you can't pick and choose what the state can kill for. Especially when you're making it up as you go along. Either the state has power to kill or not. If it does - then you can have capital punishment and kill in wars. If not - then you can't have capital punishment and you can't kill in wars.

I enjoyed how you directly contradicted yourself in your #2 - "It should not be "our" decision as to whether a person lives or dies; it should be God's." But when you're in war, it becomes your decision?

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Truth.Seeker

posted on Jul 16, 2008 - 01:01 PM

In other words - what you're doing is basing your specific refusal on on broad premises which your specific acceptance of something violates.

Joined: Feb 25, 2008 | Posts: 432