coptichymns.net - Sharing the Joy of Coptic Hymns Around the World

PaulS

posted on Aug 11, 2005 - 07:11 AM

Hello,

I will soon upload an Arabic sermon by His Eminence Metropolitan Pishoy relating to the Coptic Orthodox Church and unity with other Orthodox churches.

In this sermon, I heard some useful information and would like to share it with you here in English.

As of 1990 and beyond:

+ Roman Orthodox and Coptic Orthodox men and women are allowed to marry one another. If any Roman Orthodox person marries a Coptic Orthodox person, the priests of each church should fully accept the couple as though they were raised in their churches.

As of 1998 and beyond:

+ Since we believe in the baptism of any Orthodox church that believes in our baptism, there is no need to baptize or anoint with Myron Roman Orthodox persons marrying Coptic Orthodox persons.

+ We do not refuse Holy Communion to Roman Orthodox persons and vice versa.

+ No Coptic Orthodox priest may, however, participate in a Roman Orthodox liturgical service of any type. There is no agreed protocol for liturgical communion... yet.

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PaulS
Webmaster
coptichymns.net
http://www.coptichymns.net/

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Origenos

posted on Aug 11, 2005 - 08:43 AM

Hey Paul,
Did he mean Roman Orthodox church of Alexandria Only?!!
I know that there is no re-baptism or re-chrysmation
But That's wierd because I heard Pope Shenouda that Receiving communion is not yet agreed upon.
The monks of Athos are the only obstacle.

Joined: Dec 10, 2003 | Posts: 255
Location: Texas

PaulS

posted on Aug 11, 2005 - 09:00 AM

Origenos,

His Eminence mentioned Mount Athos, but I will leave the matter to after you listen to the entire sermon, which I will post tomorrow, ensha'allah, as I am sure your Arabic is better than mine.

GBU,
ps

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Location: St. Abanoub and St. Antony Coptic Orthodox Church in Norco, CA

sm

posted on Aug 11, 2005 - 10:22 AM

Paul, small clarification: these new developments apply only to the See of St. Mark in Egypt and Africa. This doesn't apply to the COC and Byzantine churches in the lands of immigration.

Joined: Aug 04, 2004 | Posts: 650
Location: Oxford, England

Paisios

posted on Aug 11, 2005 - 06:42 PM

As a side issue, I've noticed people have been spelling the name Pishoy with a P, even for people who spell their name with a B (e.g., H.E. Metropolitan Bishoy has been spelled here as Met. Pishoy). Obviously the Coptic spelling is P, however, we ought to keep personal preferences personal. I spell my name with a B, as does His Eminence. Who are we to change the spelling of someone's name?

_________________
Bishoy M. Mikhail
Cleveland, Ohio

Joined: Jun 14, 2004 | Posts: 20

PaulS

posted on Aug 11, 2005 - 06:58 PM

Bishoy,

Your point is taken, but you've assumed that:

1) I am aware of His Eminence's personal preference for the letter "B;" and
2) I wilfully disregarded that preference.

Neither of those assumptions is true.

I've seen His Eminence's name spelled with a "P" before, but if you know for a fact he prefers "B," I will gladly change our site's references to him.

I did, after all, use a "B" for your name.

GBU,
ps

Joined: Sep 09, 2002 | Posts: 2447
Location: St. Abanoub and St. Antony Coptic Orthodox Church in Norco, CA

Paisios

posted on Aug 11, 2005 - 08:48 PM

Dear Paul,
Great to hear from you, thanks for your note. His Eminence uses the "B," this is from personal knowledge. It is just good to be consistent with all the documents and agreements he's personally signed in that spelling. No big deal, just being picky. Great work on this site by the way, thanks!
B.

_________________
Bishoy M. Mikhail
Cleveland, Ohio

Joined: Jun 14, 2004 | Posts: 20

PaulS

posted on Aug 11, 2005 - 09:52 PM

Thank you kindly for the correction, Bishoy.

I will work on correcting His Eminence's name in our media collections and announcements this evening. If you--or anyone reading this--has any other corrections to offer, please feel free to PM me. I'm encouraged by people helping us make everything on this site as correct as possible.

GBU,
ps

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asinner

posted on Aug 11, 2005 - 10:41 PM

forgive me for my ignoranc
but are the monks of mount athos a name of a group of monks in a monestary or is it like monks wha are gatherd togeather against this unity

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Origenos

posted on Aug 11, 2005 - 11:11 PM

the monks in the Mount of Athos in Greece.
Few monasteries there.

Joined: Dec 10, 2003 | Posts: 255
Location: Texas

Origenos

posted on Aug 13, 2005 - 07:30 AM

Dear Paul,
Thank you very much for this sermon, It was very helpful.

All what you said was correct and only applies to the Alexandrian roman orthodox patriarchate and to the Roman Orthodox in Antioch.
Yet we are not in full communion with them.
Since the roman orthodox church is in communion with other orthodox churches, they cannot agree alone.
Our Holy synod also absolved all the other Orthodox church GIVEN THAT they absolve us.
As HG Bishop Moussa said, the excommunications on other churches will be AUTOMATICALLY cancelled once they cancel their excommunications to us.

Also our church will recognize all their orthodox fathers, however not individually but collectively; meaning that we do not a father who had nestorian views.

Concerning Mount Athos, they are an obstacle to the unity. Since Greece cannot be in full communion with us without Mount Athos agreement, or else they will be divided.

However HE Metropolitan Bishoy mentions that he started speaking directly with an abbot of a monastery in Mount Athos and he said that he was optimistic about it.

Also, a full communion with Russia seems also close.

HE also asks us to pray for this matter of Unity and I feel we really need to pray for this matter as the future of Christianity is truly based on the Orthodox church.

Concerning the unities with Catholics and Protestants, HE sees it as very far away.

Thanks Paul

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Location: Texas

PaulS

posted on Aug 13, 2005 - 07:35 AM

Thank you kindly for the additional information, Origenos. I'm excited to see these matters being translated into English for those of us without a mastery of the Arabic language.

Some questions to help us understand these issues further. Anyone with knowledge should feel free to answer them.

1. What is the underlying issue with the Mount Athos monks? Why would they be an obstacle to unity? I know there are aleady divisions in the Greek church involving them, but how does that apply to the Coptic Orthodox Church's path towards Christian unity?

2. Concerning unity and full communion with the Russian Orthodox Church, does this mean the Coptic Orthodox Church would recognize the views of, for example, Fr. Sergey Bulgakov?

I hope those who answer these questions will do simply so beginners will understand. My goal is to help everyone learn about the differences between Orthodox churches and the things our church is doing to fix them.

GBU,
ps

Joined: Sep 09, 2002 | Posts: 2447
Location: St. Abanoub and St. Antony Coptic Orthodox Church in Norco, CA

Origenos

posted on Aug 13, 2005 - 07:59 AM

From PaulS:
1. What is the underlying issue with the Mount Athos monks? Why would they be an obstacle to unity? I know there are aleady divisions in the Greek church involving them, but how does that apply to the Coptic Orthodox Church's path towards Christian unity?

2. Concerning unity and full communion with the Russian Orthodox Church, does this mean the Coptic Orthodox Church would recognize the views of, for example, Fr. Sergey Bulgakov?


As for the first point, the monks of Mount Athos are not divided from the Greek church. They are a group of monks in one mountain, like Wadi el Natrun for us.
They are just very rigid in some cases. For example whenever they mention St. Dioscoros they say the Hated from God!!!
So they were very upset from the Greek Patricarch and bishops who agree with us regarding the nature of Christ and considered this as not being loyal to Chalcedone Council (451 AD)
They also consider us as followers of Otakhy (I don't know how to spell his name in English, i think Eutych) although we condemn his teachings.
That's why HE Metropolitan Bishoy wants to meet with them to explain our view directly.
They are an obstacle since the greek patriarchate does not want to loose them by uniting to us.

There are also some dividing groups in the greek church that consider us as heretic and send pamphlets to Egypt saying that we are heretics. These do not present a problem since they are not in agreement with the greek church.

2) Concerning the second point. I don't know the father you mentioned.
But pope Shenouda told HE Metropolitan Bishoy that when we say we accept their fathers and their councils. We accept their father who hold the same faith. And if there was a father who held Nestorian views, this absolution will not benefit him.
Same as when the priest gives absolution to the congregation during the liturgy, only the worthy will benefit.

And in my view the same happens when we ask the blessings of the fathers who gathered in Nicea (318), Ephesus (200) and Constantinopolis(150). Among them there were some who followed Nestorios, Arius and Macdonios but we only mean the ones who held the orthodox faith

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Origenos Piremrakoti

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mikokiko

posted on Aug 13, 2005 - 10:57 AM

I pray that one day, God may unite all the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches in full communion, as this will help strengthen the Orthodox faith, and hopefully many will convert to the purest and most uncontaminted form of Chrisitianity, unchanged from the Apostolic age...

Shani Rompi

Joined: Feb 11, 2003 | Posts: 1348

drewmeister2

posted on Aug 13, 2005 - 08:59 PM

From PaulS:Hello,

I will soon upload an Arabic sermon by His Eminence Metropolitan Pishoy relating to the Coptic Orthodox Church and unity with other Orthodox churches.

In this sermon, I heard some useful information and would like to share it with you here in English.

As of 1990 and beyond:

+ Roman Orthodox and Coptic Orthodox men and women are allowed to marry one another. If any Roman Orthodox person marries a Coptic Orthodox person, the priests of each church should fully accept the couple as though they were raised in their churches.

As of 1998 and beyond:

+ Since we believe in the baptism of any Orthodox church that believes in our baptism, there is no need to baptize or anoint with Myron Roman Orthodox persons marrying Coptic Orthodox persons.

+ We do not refuse Holy Communion to Roman Orthodox persons and vice versa.

+ No Coptic Orthodox priest may, however, participate in a Roman Orthodox liturgical service of any type. There is no agreed protocol for liturgical communion... yet.

What's a Roman Orthodox?

Thanks!

Joined: Aug 12, 2005 | Posts: 72

Terence

posted on Aug 14, 2005 - 07:53 PM

Im puzzled to know how fasting practices, amongst other things, can be mutually accommodated. Roman Catholics don't have a real fasting tradition, except for an hour before communion(that doesn't include water). Copts, on the other hand are renowned for their fasting.

Joined: Jun 09, 2005 | Posts: 35

minasoliman

posted on Aug 22, 2005 - 03:54 PM

I guess Roman Orthodox is another way to say "Byzantine" Orthodox.

As for the 1998 agreement on not denying communion, where can I read this? This is all the more a reason to be optimistic about unity.

God bless.

Joined: May 22, 2003 | Posts: 1789

petertheodore

posted on Aug 23, 2005 - 09:15 PM

You can read the agreement on pastoral issues here:

http://www.orthodoxunity.org/state03.html

Joined: Dec 02, 2003 | Posts: 434
Location: England

minasoliman

posted on Oct 20, 2009 - 06:52 AM

Forgive me for resurrecting this topic, but whatever happened to the lecture posted by His Eminence on the 1998 agreement? And is there a written agreement, Arabic or English online on the 1998 (not the 1990 one) agreement where one can read it?

Thank you.

Mina

Joined: May 22, 2003 | Posts: 1789

Truth.Seeker

posted on Oct 20, 2009 - 10:00 PM

Just to clarify, are you sure that "el rom el orsozox" (said by HE) means ALL of the EO, i.e. Byzantine Orthodox?

I'm confused as to what "el rom el orsozox" means whenever HE says the term. There are three possibilities: Roman Orthodox, Romanian Orthodox, or Byzantine Orthodox. There's no such thing as a Roman Orthodox Church (at least as far as the autocephalous EO churches go), there is an entity named Romanian Orthodox Church, and based on my own understanding, H.E. seems to be talking about a specific group, not the whole of the EO. However, I don't know what the Romanian Orthodox are doing in Egypt or Africa, so I remain confused.

Based on the 1998 agreement, if "el rom el orsozox" means the EO, does that mean I can walk into a Greek Orthodox Church and take communion? I don't think that's the case - correct me if I'm wrong.

Joined: Feb 25, 2008 | Posts: 961

minasoliman

posted on Oct 21, 2009 - 07:41 AM

The "Roman Orthodox" are the Byzantine Orthodox. Roman is just a designation for the Orthodox that were loyal to the Roman Empire and its subsequent councils (Chalcedon, etc.) Constantinople and Moscow have both been called "Rome," the former being "New Rome" since the second ecumenical council, and the latter called "Third Rome" (part of the reason why there's primacy of honor issues between Constantinople and Moscow patriarchates today). Thus the Roman Orthodox Church of Alexandria is the Orthodox Church of Alexandria in communion with New Rome and Third Rome, the historically "Melchite" Church loyal to the Roman empire. They even call themselves "Rum Orthodox."

As for the agreement, it only pertains to the Alexandrian Greek Orthodox Church and the Coptic Church only in the Egypt (and the Syrian and Antiochian Greek churches only in Syria, although I think they extended that to the US).

Joined: May 22, 2003 | Posts: 1789

lowlyman

posted on Oct 21, 2009 - 05:12 PM

as a roum orthodox, I can tell you that it means EO. The melkites are eastern catholics who kept the byzantine tradition. melkites are not orthodox, and they follow Rome.

i commend all those involved in the signings of the agreement, as it is a model for orthodox unity. uniting at the "leaf" node level is probably the best way of doing it.

From Truth.Seeker:Just to clarify, are you sure that "el rom el orsozox" (said by HE) means ALL of the EO, i.e. Byzantine Orthodox?

I'm confused as to what "el rom el orsozox" means whenever HE says the term. There are three possibilities: Roman Orthodox, Romanian Orthodox, or Byzantine Orthodox. There's no such thing as a Roman Orthodox Church (at least as far as the autocephalous EO churches go), there is an entity named Romanian Orthodox Church, and based on my own understanding, H.E. seems to be talking about a specific group, not the whole of the EO. However, I don't know what the Romanian Orthodox are doing in Egypt or Africa, so I remain confused.

Based on the 1998 agreement, if "el rom el orsozox" means the EO, does that mean I can walk into a Greek Orthodox Church and take communion? I don't think that's the case - correct me if I'm wrong.

Joined: Apr 04, 2006 | Posts: 288

Truth.Seeker

posted on Oct 21, 2009 - 05:26 PM

I see, yeah, I know all the "new Rome" stuff (CC wasn't very fond of the 381 Council for a while). I was thrown off because Met. Bishoy kept referring to "byzantine orthodox" and then says "roman orthodox," so I thought there was a difference.

Thanks for the clarification!

It is statements like this: "The Holy Synod of the Indian Orthodox Church has also approved both agreements. Likewise, the Holy Synod of the Romanian Church (The Byzantinian Orthodox) approved both agreements." (from one of the documents on HE's website) that throw me off.

Joined: Feb 25, 2008 | Posts: 961

Truth.Seeker

posted on Oct 21, 2009 - 05:38 PM

So, just to put my hands on this, I can go to St. Catherine's monastery in Sinai and take communion?

Joined: Feb 25, 2008 | Posts: 961

Remnkemi

posted on Oct 21, 2009 - 05:59 PM

When Bishoy Mikhail gave us a talk on this in 2005, the agreement between the Coptic Orthodox and the Greek Orthodox Church in Alexandria only applied to marriages and baptisms. In other words, a Copt can marry a Greek Orthodox without anyone "converting". The also took away the need for rebaptism because the two were strongly interconnected (ie, a Greek used to be required to convert. Conversion by definition was rebaptism.) They did not say anything about the Eucharist. It seems to me that all the sacraments would apply if one sacrament applies. However, as far as I know there have been no official updates. So no you can't go to St. Catherine's Monastery and take communion.


The Ecumenical Committee for the Coptic Orthodox Church website has not been updated since 2005. Hopefully, Fr. Peter can update us, if he has any new information.

George

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