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Using Ostrich Feathers During "Worthy and Right"

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PaulS

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posted on Feb 18, 2003 - 08:35 PM

How many of us come from churches in which the two altar deacons on either side of the priest wave large feathers during "Worthy and Right" when the priest chants about the Heavenly Hosts praising GOD?

I know Archangel Michael in Santa Ana, CA does it (or used to), which is interesting, because its priest, Fr. Felimon, was trained by Mu'allim Sadek in his Medinat Nasr church.

And yet, the Medinat Nasr church does not engage in this practice.

Sound off here!


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Guest

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posted on Feb 18, 2003 - 08:55 PM

that is so cool. no, dont come from one myself.

is that part of the original rite?

Ramez Mikhail

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posted on Feb 18, 2003 - 09:28 PM

yeah...and they stilldo

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PaulS

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posted on Feb 18, 2003 - 09:35 PM

So does St. George do it, Ramez?


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Ramez Mikhail

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posted on Feb 19, 2003 - 03:30 AM

that was me.....Ramez btw 8)

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Mechaiel

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posted on Feb 26, 2003 - 09:24 AM

Firstly,

Please excuse the one-week-late reply Smile .

I believe that the fans are a part of our ritual as I have read about it in a couple of taqs books.

Our church here in Western Australia has two small fans made from palm tree leaves (due to the unavailability of suitable feathers), which measure about 20cm in diameter.

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PaulS

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posted on Feb 26, 2003 - 09:33 AM

Thank you for that addition, Mechaiel. It's interesting that you use palm leaves instead of ostrich feathers; I would have thought people only replaced the feathers with palms on Palm Sunday!

However, your church is still ahead in the fact that it retains this practice at all. I hope you will be able to resurrect it in Australia.

On a related note, I am going to track down some feathers and see if we can sell them from this site to churches who don't currently use them.

Anyone care to hunt ostriches? Smile


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KidofKaras

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posted on Apr 23, 2003 - 01:13 AM

Yes Archangel Michael in Santa Anna does it, I did it once for Abouna Athanasius & for Abouna Philemon, but they still use it. I think it isn't real ostrige feathers but it still seems like it.


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“This is the mark of Christianity—however much a man toils, and however many righteousness he performs, to feel that he has done nothing, and in fasting to say, “This is not fasting,” and in praying, “This is not prayer,” and in perseverance at prayer, “I have shown no perseverance; I am only just beginning to practice and take pains”; and even if he is righteous before God, he should say, “I am not righteous, not I; I do not take pains, but only make a beginning every day.” – St. Macarius the Great

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anbageorge

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posted on Apr 23, 2003 - 01:37 AM

This is very interesting. Can anybody please provide some more explanation about this. Why osterich feathers? Why during this part of the liturgy (kinda common sense, but every little bit helps)?


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theophilos

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posted on Apr 23, 2003 - 05:32 AM

Umm...dudes...are we talking about the Coptic church here??? I have never heard of this!!

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Mechaiel

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posted on Apr 23, 2003 - 08:30 AM

Theophilus,

The feather "fans" are definately part of our tradition. If you read any book about church taqs, you'll find it document it. Unfortunately, all the reference books that I've read are all in Arabic, but I'm sure there will be, if not already is, English translations made. This tradition has however fallen out of practice like many others that you will discover when you read taqs books and more of the posts on coptichymns.net

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Kirollos64

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posted on Aug 24, 2003 - 01:25 AM

I guess we'll just have to wait until someone comes along with the explanation... Laughing

Btw, writing Coptic in my posts doesn't work. I keep clicking on the button 'Coptic' but I still don't get Coptic letters. All my codes are ON...I've tried copy, paste but that didn't work as well... Am I missing something here? Confused
Sorry for being off-track

God bless you all,
Kirollos


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egyptianhomeboy

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posted on Aug 24, 2003 - 04:57 AM

Has somebody forgotten about anbageorge's question?

This is very interesting. Can anybody please provide some more explanation about this. Why osterich feathers? Why during this part of the liturgy (kinda common sense, but every little bit helps)?

I'm really interested in know this answer as well...


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Saint Marina Coptic Orthodox Church

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Kirollos64

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posted on Aug 24, 2003 - 08:05 PM

Hey guys,

I asked someone today at church about this and he didnt have much time to explain it to me but what I heard so far is that the deacons do this because they are servants...They wave these big osterich feathers as fans for our Lord Jesus Christ - he is a KING, our King. It's just like how the ancient rulers of some countries used to have servants who wave large fans in front of them while the king is eating grapes! Razz... We have to respect Jesus as a King as well... which reminds me of a lecture Anba Anagelos gave once to us. It was about the three wise men that visted Jesus when he was born in Bethlehem and the presents that they gave him. Why gold, myrrh and frankencense? I'll only mention Gold because it's related to this.
Well, if I remember right it should be like this,

    Gold - because Jesus is a King. We have to respect him en recognise him as a King because he is our King. A King with authority but who protects, provides and gives...( © Anba Angaelos Razz )

So if us deacons ever start waving these osterich feathers or if you're already doing it, you now know why but don't feel like you're a slave; you are honouring Jesus for loving you. Smile

God bless you all,
Kirollos


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"Young people, enjoy your youth. Be happy while you are still young. Do what you want to do, and follow your heart's desire. But remember that God is going to judge you for whatever you do."
- Ecc 11:9 -

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Kirollos64

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posted on Aug 24, 2003 - 08:34 PM

By the way, Im not sure about this but I think it's most probably right... If you read the passage of 'Worthy and Right' (here I have Meet and Right but thats irrelevant) the priest is complementing God in a way. Here's the passage for those of you who are interested (which is everyone off course Very Happy) Keep in mind, this is what I THINK so I'm not sure if I'm right. Confused Anyone is welcome to correct me if I'm wrong. Very Happy

"Meet and right, meet and right, truly, indeed, it is meet and right.
O You, Who are, Master, Lord, God of truth, being before the ages and reigning forever. Who dwells in the highest and looks upon the lowly, Who has created the heaven, the earth, the sea and all that is therein. The Father of our Lord, God and Saviour Jesus Christ, by whom You have created all things, seen and unseen. Who sits upon the throne of His glory, and Who is worshipped by all the holy powers."

As you can all see, this passage indicates clearly that God is our King or is like a King to us. I'm not sure but I don't think there is any other passage in the Holy Litrugy of St. Basil where the priest prays to God as a King... then again, I'm only a humble deacon who doesn't know much. Forgive me for the length and if all that I have said is wrong.

Kirollos


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"Young people, enjoy your youth. Be happy while you are still young. Do what you want to do, and follow your heart's desire. But remember that God is going to judge you for whatever you do."
- Ecc 11:9 -

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Mechaiel

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posted on Aug 26, 2003 - 05:38 PM

Hi Kirollos,

Regarding the writing in Coptic in your posts, here's a step-by-step procedure:
1) Click on the Coptic button (near Bold, italic and underline)
2) Type the word (you will see english letters).
3) Click on the Coptic button again to end. You should now see something like this:
[ code ] Maria [/code]

and when you submit the post it will look like this:
 Maria

I hope this helps. Let me know how you go.

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Remnkemi

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posted on Aug 26, 2003 - 10:02 PM

From anbageorge:This is very interesting. Can anybody please provide some more explanation about this. Why osterich feathers? Why during this part of the liturgy (kinda common sense, but every little bit helps)?

I think there are a few reasons why osterich feathers are flapped at this part of the liturgy.

Why during "Worthy and Just"
There are 2 reasons. One from the Old Testament, one from the New.
In the Old Testament
During Isaiah's commission to serve, he saw the "seraph" or Seraphim with 6 wings. We all know the story. There are 2 points we need to acknowledge.
1. Flapping their wings was the sign of praise for the Cherubim and the Seraphim. This can be found in the Monday explanation (loubsh), which say "The Cherubim and the Seraphim flap their wings saying, "This is the King of Glory who carries the sin of the world". You'll notice that whenever the Seraphim's wings are used (ie using wings to cover their face, their feet and flying with wings) in Isaiah's story, they are simultaneously praising God saying, "Holy, Holy, Holy..." There is a more ellaborate description in Ezekiel's vision of the Fiery Throne of God (Ez 1). In Ezekiel's story, whenever the 4 creatures flapped their wings (or moved together because their wings touched each other), they praised God.
2. In Isaiah's story, Isaiah acknowledges that the Lord on the throne is a king. He says, "I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the LORD Almighty." So Kyrillos. You were absolutely right. In the liturgy, during this section, we are praising the King by the works he did (looking upon the lowly, creating everything, etc, and sitting on a throne...) You'll also notice that the Monday explanation also acknowledges the presence of the King.

In the New Testament
The Liturgy of St. Basil is an interpretation of Revelations. Everything in the liturgy is derived from the Coptic father's understanding of Revelations. In this particular section of the liturgy, we go to Revelations 4. It also describes Ezekiel's vision and the Lord around the Throne. It also mentions the 4 living creatures. Again in verse 8, the 4 creatures praise God saying, "You are worthy" That is why we recall the 4 living creatures during this part of the liturgy. If you remember, the priest is portraying the heavenly scene of angles and he just finished describing the Cherubim and the Seraphim. Whenever you describe these angels, you remember that they have wings and that they praise God saying, "You are worthy" or "Holy, Holy, Holy".

Why an osterich feather
This has to do with the importance of the osterich in Ancient Egyptian culture. You can see the previous forum on the osterich egg (Maybe Ramez or one of the coordinators can give us the link). In a nutshell, the osterich and the osterich eye are very important in Ancient Egypt. The osterich's eye is bigger than its brain. It's primary purpose of existence is to watch its eggs. Seeing or overseeing is the essece of the osterich's existence. This correlates to Oseris' eye and its magical powers. Oseris, the magical eye and many other Ancient Egyptian tales found many similarities in Christ and the Resurrection. The osterich egg and the osterich eye were included. If we look at Revelations 4:8 again, it says, "Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under his wings." The fathers correlated the importance of eyes (or ever-seeing) of the heavenly creatures with the osterich. Having both large wings and large eyes, they found an excellent resemblance of the Christian heavenly creatures to continue their old Ancient Egyptian cultural philosophy.

Personally, I've never seen anybody use an osterich feather. I have heard that feathers were used but now everybody uses the corporeal (silk cloth) instead.

George

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Mechaiel

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posted on Aug 27, 2003 - 08:00 AM

Dear George,

Thank you for the lovely explanation. The previous reference to the Ostrich egg may be accessed via the following link:

http://www.coptichymns.net/modules.php? ... =7834#7834

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Kirollos64

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posted on Aug 27, 2003 - 01:26 PM

Hey,

Thanks Mechaiel for telling me how to write Coptic. Here's my real name: mena Very Happy

As for George, thank you very much for your wonderful explanation. I knew mine was kind of underdevelopped but now I know more Very Happy How is it going with the alhan by the way, still on stage 1 or 2 for some hymns Wink

God bless you all,
Kirollos


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- Ecc 11:9 -

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Mechaiel

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posted on Aug 28, 2003 - 12:48 PM

Nofri Mena,

I'm glad to see you writing Coptic. Here's another tip. I think Paul or someone else has already mentioned this in a previous thread, but I cannot remember which one, so I'll say it now. If you don't know which letter of the keyboard correspond to the Coptic letter this is a possible solution:

1) If you have Windows Me:
i) Start
ii) Programs
iii) Accessories
iv) Accessability
v) On-screen keyboard
vi) Once you're there, Go to Settings menu, then Font. Change the font to a Coptic font (eg CS Avva Shenouda). If you don't have any coptic fonts, you can download them from this website (Downloads section, Coptic Fonts).

2) If you have other versions of Windows, I don't know how to get to the On-screen keyboard, but you can always type "On-screen keyboard" in the help section (Start, Help) and see what comes up.

3) The third way you can do this is to download a program called "Virtual Keyboard." I think you can get it from the Microsoft website. If you get to this stage and are stuck, let me know and I'll try to find out for you.

Hope this helps.

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Kyrollos

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posted on Mar 27, 2004 - 09:03 PM

My Church just uses the cloths we use to cover our mouth after Holy Communion instead of palm leaves and feathers..weird

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PaulS

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posted on Mar 27, 2004 - 09:08 PM

From Kyrollos:My Church just uses the cloths we use to cover our mouth after Holy Communion instead of palm leaves and feathers..weird

At least you're recognizing the rite in SOME way. I don't think most churches are even aware of this taqs.

If you think your priest would allow feathers to complete the taqs, check out the links above featuring Internet sites that sell ostrich feathers.


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PaulS
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Kyrollos

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posted on Mar 27, 2004 - 09:56 PM

Paul,
I think my priest would be thrilled with the ostrich feathers...however i cant access the link above...is it outdated or something....if so can u repost the correct link
Thank you in advance

Kyrollos

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PaulS

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posted on Mar 28, 2004 - 10:23 PM

Sorry about the previous dead link.

Here, you have the AZ Ostrich Company, Inc. for all of your or your church's ostrich eggs, feathers, and meat needs.


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Raouf2430

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posted on Mar 29, 2004 - 03:21 AM

At St. Demiana's in San Diego we use cloths on a stick (for lack of a better description) but we only use them when we chant "The Cherubim worship you...". ???

In Christ,
Raouf

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