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posted on Jan 22, 2005 - 11:43 AM
This is a question that has haunted me for quite some time....
Why do I hear stories of dead-raisings, Christ-encounters, Theotokos-encounters, healings, etc. in other churches (Protestant, Catholic, etc.)? Does God encourage heresy or apostasy? Does He not care about His truth? Is God a pluralist? What's up?
posted on Jan 22, 2005 - 06:09 PM
wait wait wait..hold it right there 
let me explain.....
I need someone to tell me the locaiton of this verse..but Jesus said in the Bible that some people will "by his name" take out devils and perform miracles but at the last day he'll say go away from me, I do not know you...Also...the devil is capable of appearing in the form of an angel..he's very powerful....
I used to think the same but I was told that miracles are not a proof of how Godly someone is....so be careful who you believe and test the spirits.....
posted on Jan 22, 2005 - 06:12 PM
and I am by no means saying that there aren't miracles that are "true" that happen in other churches simply because of people's simplicity and faith...but be careful...don't use miracles as a proof of true belief....and after all Jesus didn't perform miracles only with the good people.....the purpose of miracles is to glorify God..so if that link is missing somewhere then don't believe it's from God........... ie..speaking in tongues etc...
posted on Jan 22, 2005 - 06:23 PM
Here you go NCcopt 
And Jesus answered and said to them: "Take heed that no one deceives you. For many will come in My name, saying, "I am the Christ," and will deceive many. And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet." (Matthew 24:4-6)
Here's another one that I thought related...
Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?" And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!" (Matthew 7:21-23)
_________________
Sarah Khalil
Dear Lord, do not let me be parted from you. Take me back and guide me along the paths of righteousness for your Name's sake.
posted on Jan 28, 2005 - 11:22 AM
Perhaps God performs miracles in other church in order to lead them into the truth. I know for myself, I would not have given Orthodoxy any serious thought, had not certain saints appeared to me in dreams. Whether or not someone might question me by asking me how I would really know it was them does not matter. What does matter is that sometimes God allows good things to happen to people before embracing faith so that when they are confronted with the decision they will choose Him. Sort of like a "theophany" in the person's life of faith if you will. Please correct me if I am wrong.
God bless,
MM
posted on Jan 28, 2005 - 01:39 PM
Dear ALL,
I have a comment about dreams... dreams are by no means reliable source of any visions; I personally have had dreams about Christ himself calling me! Dreams are thoughts that are sort of intermixed together and forms a certain flow of events (that's why a lot of dreams are funny).
As for Miracles, Christ does perform miracles anywhere (even to Non-Christians), it is not that you will ONLY encounter his miracles if you truly believe in him. In fact (or I should say in my opinion) if you believe in him you need no miracles; it will not prove God's existence to you, since you believe already and it will not reassure you of his promises, because you KNOW that his Promises are true by faith ("Faith is substance of things hoped for, and evidence of things unseen" - Heb 11:1). Besides God's GREATEST Miracle was done to EVERYONE in the face of this planet whether he/she was a believer or the most evil person, so why are we not digesting the fact that God can perform his miracles to anyone and by any means.
Also I can't ignore what NCcopt has said (and ksarah12's second supporting verse says) we need to be very careful of what we may consider as miracles (or for that matter saints) even in our own church. Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. (1 John 4:1)
But believing through miracles, specifically when it comes to believers, is the weakest way to prove the authenticity of our faith, and I have seen cases where miracles drove people away from church, just because of the simple fact that they believed through it and it turned out it was a hoax (or was claimed to be a hoax).
Believe in Christ and see your orthodoxy through him, not the opposite. This way you will be able to know who Christ is, know who we are, and know the richness of our Faith and of his Glory.
_________________
Pray for me,
<b>Moheb</b>
<i>"Till we all come in the <u>unity of the faith</u>, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, <b>unto a perfect man</b>, unto the measure of the stature of <u>the fulness of Christ</u>" (Ephesians 4:13)</i> <b>AMEN.</b>
"εγω ειμι η αναστασις και η ζωη" - <b>ιησου χριστου</b>
posted on Jan 28, 2005 - 02:14 PM
you made some very good points mgeorge. we wouldn't want to become like one of those "god chasing" charismatics who can only have faith if there's divine drama and miracles i think we are all mature enough not to need miracles to justify our faith. somebody mentioned that Christ said that not all who come to me and call me, "Lord Lord!", will enter the kingdom of heaven. what are some of your interpretations of that verse? i think it has more to do with the parable of the seperation of the sheep and the rams personally than it would with the ability to perform signs and wonders. after all, st paul said, even if i could move mountains, etc.,etc.,etc. and have not love, i am nothing. we should really try to judge a tree by it's fruit.
i agree that dreams do not always provide a reliable source for theological truth or guidance. however, i think it is very dangerous both psychologically and spiritually to do away with them all together. dreams provide insights into ourselves and often provide us with an unbiased view - no matter how wierd or funny they may appear - of our own interactions with our environments around us. i personally believe that God does and can communicate to us through our dreams. i think of jacob in the old testament when he had his vision of the ladder. i think dreams can provide insights into our psychological structure. they will tell us how we feel about things we deny within ourselves. i don't want to sound like a freudian here (i'm definately not), but i do think that dreams are very personal things that offer personal truth about one's self as opposed to a universal truth (if that makes any sense).
what does the C.O have to say about dreams anyway?
mm
posted on Jan 28, 2005 - 03:29 PM
I agree with you mark about dreams, they can give great insight, but I am uncomfortable with the idea of us seeing visions in our dreams. I am afraid anything we dream can be a vision... where do we draw the line? that's why I discard it all together, especially that we are not in a stage where we can/need to see vision (I know that the old testament talks about that your sons shall see visions, but anyone can claim that they have so again we need to try the spirits).
posted on Mar 01, 2008 - 12:20 PM
From exGreek:This is a question that has haunted me for quite some time....
Why do I hear stories of dead-raisings, Christ-encounters, Theotokos-encounters, healings, etc. in other churches (Protestant, Catholic, etc.)? Does God encourage heresy or apostasy? Does He not care about His truth? Is God a pluralist? What's up?
Assyrian church and Coptic church are two different churches but same beliefs do u think we (Assyian church) are the people jesus Christ talked about when he said
Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?" And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!" (Matthew 7:21-23)
What i am trying to say is Coptic church is not the only right church in world.
posted on Mar 01, 2008 - 03:29 PM
From Katreen:
What i am trying to say is Coptic church is not the only right church in world.
The peace of our Lord,
Katreen, you are definetly right..the Coptic Church is not the only right Church in the world. There are the churches within the Oriental Orthodox Church (Coptic Orthodox, Ethiopian Orthodox, Eritrean Orthodox, and the Syriac Orthodox Church of Antioch aka Syrian Orthodox Church of Antioch) and you also have the Eastern Orthodox Churches (which you can see in this link)
The reason I mentioned so far only the Oriental Orthodox and the Eastern Orthodox Churches and no other church is because these are the Churches that have not changed any views of Christian since the time Jesus told his disciples and apostles to go spread the Word (the reason we are called Orthodox, meaning the "sound" or "true/right" faith)
Now other churches: just as I stated in the other thread about the middle east and the coptic church..we have no ability to make a judgment call and say Yes the Assyrian Church will go to heaven or no the Assyrian Church will go to heaven. It is not our place.
The is the way I like to think about it: point A is right here on earth and point B is heaven. Our goal is to get from point A to point B. The Churches that will get you to point B in the straightest line is the Oriental and Eastern Orthodox Churches. Are there other churches that will get you to point B (heaven)? maybe, but they aren't the straightest way to get to heaven and I'm, again, not making a judgment call so please do not be offended in any way.
Another way I look at it when I compare the Orthodox Faith to let's say a Protestant Church: let's take communion as an example. I can say this in a number of ways but I will say it in the easiest way (without bringing verses from the Bible, though there are a number of verses). There are 2 scenarios: 1) suppose our belief of communion is wrong and it's something not important to get into heaven. So a protestant and an orthodox get to heaven: if communion isn't really what it is then we both get into heaven (i've wasted my Sundays doing this process that didnt mean anything) 2) suppose that communion is an actual belief and is necessary to get into heaven. Now a protestant and an orthodox get to heaven: communion is necessary to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven..well I haven't wasted my time, I belief that this is the Body and the Blood of Jesus Christ. The protestant didn't, they took a big risk. We preached and said you must have communion to etner into the Kingdom of Heaven, so at the gates of heaven one can't say I didn't know, no one told me. It's a risk that the person would be taking: 50/50 chance of getting in whereas I am completely 100% guaranteed to get into the Kingdom of Heaven. Will God let that person into Heaven..not my place to decide but I know the correct teachings of the Church and I do not want to risk my salvation whereas that person is taking a 50% chnace that they will and a 50% chance that they won't.
There are other beliefs in the Church that are important like, as discussed before in the other thread, the acknowledgement that our Lord Jesus Christ was completely divine and completely human, one nature, and neither separated from the other for a single moment, which includes the time of his death on the cross (whereas Nestorius taught that the divinity of Christ left his human body..meaning that this whole thing our Lord did was in vain and wasn't really for salvation and we are therefore not really saved so everything we do on this earth is in vain.)
I hope this makes sense, God bless you.
_________________
andrew
May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be pleasing to you, pleasing to you.
"O God, my God, I will rise up early unto You; for my soul has thirsted for You: to make my flesh blossom for You, in a barren land and a trackless and dry place." (Psalm 62:1)
"My son, give me your heart, And let your eyes observe my ways." (Proverbs 23:26)
"Every meeting with Christ is a prayer of renewal. Every prayer is an experience of faith. Every experience of faith is eternal life." Abouna Matta El-Meskeen
Administrator of copticamerica.org. Ask me for help!
posted on Mar 01, 2008 - 07:28 PM
The reason I mentioned so far only the Oriental Orthodox and the Eastern Orthodox Churches and no other church is because these are the Churches that have not changed any views of Christian since the time Jesus told his disciples and apostles to go spread the Word (the reason we are called Orthodox, meaning the "sound" or "true/right" faith)
my church is Orthodox too, we havent changed one thing we Assyrians split churches aswell there are Assyrians who celebrate Easter according to the new calender we call them 25 poeple (lol its funny when u translate it t english). But my church which is the middle eastern Assyrian Orthodox we didnt change a single thing you can find it inthe link u gave me.
posted on Mar 01, 2008 - 08:40 PM
From Katreen:
my church is Orthodox too, we havent changed one thing we Assyrians split churches aswell there are Assyrians who celebrate Easter according to the new calender we call them 25 poeple (lol its funny when u translate it t english). But my church which is the middle eastern Assyrian Orthodox we didnt change a single thing you can find it inthe link u gave me.
I thought your church is Eastern Assyrians because you said you followed the teachings of Nestorius correct?
The Eastern Assyrian Church (aka Persian Church or Middle Eastern Church, which followed the sayings of Nestorius) is the church that split from the Council of Ephesus and that's why I was saying that the Oriental and Eastern Orthodox Churches haven't changed at all from the Apostlic teachings, though the Assyrians haven't changed completely they did adapt the views of Nestorius.
Yes, the Assyrian Church can trace her lineage back to the Apostlic teachings just like the Oriental Orthodox Churches and the Eastern Orthodox Churches, though the point was that the Assyrian Church followed the beliefs of Nestorius which was not accepted by any other Church established (Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox included)
we've deviated from the topic a bit so if you want to start a new topic and keep this for miracles let's do that. God bless you.
_________________
andrew
May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be pleasing to you, pleasing to you.
"O God, my God, I will rise up early unto You; for my soul has thirsted for You: to make my flesh blossom for You, in a barren land and a trackless and dry place." (Psalm 62:1)
"My son, give me your heart, And let your eyes observe my ways." (Proverbs 23:26)
"Every meeting with Christ is a prayer of renewal. Every prayer is an experience of faith. Every experience of faith is eternal life." Abouna Matta El-Meskeen
Administrator of copticamerica.org. Ask me for help!
posted on Mar 01, 2008 - 08:42 PM
These days I rarely reply to topic, but I couldn't help but want to give my 2 cents about this one.
Before I jump into my thoughts, I'll share with you guys this joke that I heard once:
Saint Peter was taking this new guy for a tour around heaven and at the first stop he took the guy to a room where everyone was shouting "Alleluia, Praise God!!!!" and the man asked, "What is this room?" Saint Peter replied by explaining to him that this is the part of heaven where the Protestants are at. Then he took him to the next part of heaven and the man heard the people singing in one voice and kneeling for prayer, etc.. and the man inquired about those people and Saint Peter replied by telling him that it is the area where the the Catholics remain at. Next, Saint Peter took him to a different part of heaven and said to him, "Shhhhhhhhushhhh! Be silent!!!!" and the man replied saying, "Why must I be silent here?" Saint Peter said to him, "We have to go through this part of heaven unnoticed because this is where the Coptic Orthodox people stay at and they think they are the only ones who are here."
I heard this joke on "The Fish" radio station when I was driving home from school one day. I never EVER listen to any radio when I drive, but the one time that I did turn on the fish station they were talking about Coptic Orthodoxy...kind of interesting.
But anyhow, the point that I'm trying to make is that Coptic Orthodox is an amazing religion, but we are not going to be the only one's in heaven. Heaven doesn't have a sign hanging over it that says, "Egyptians Only!" Heaven will be filled by kinds of people. This is why it bothers me when I used to get into, "Theological Debates" (which is a nice way of saying bible fights) with protestants, catholics, mormons, muslims etc... because the God is going to test the heart of the person not the theological understanding.
Mercy, not sacrifice!!!!
George Mekhaiel
....i would say a lot more but I have 3 midterms, one paper and a project due on thursday and I need to start....procrastinating HUGE.
_________________
George Mekhaiel
posted on Mar 01, 2008 - 10:42 PM
geomekhail, there is ONE TRUTH. This One Truth must be applied the closest by any one of these churches, as Orthodox Christians we believe (btw that joke is offensive) that Orthodoxy is the purest and untainted form to follow Christianity. However for those in other churches, we do not condemn them to hell or even call many of them heretics, but we do say that whatever way they are saved and come to know the Truth, if they do, it is in proximity with the way of Truth which we believe to be Orthodoxy.
If the Orthodox and Seventh Day Adventists have teachings that contradict eachother, both cannot be equally the Truth, only One, as soon as people know the truth and apply it in faith, they are closer on the path of salvation than others.
posted on Mar 01, 2008 - 11:15 PM
Mikokiko,
You used the word truth many times, but what really is truth?
Bishop Serapion said that there is only one truth, Jesus Christ, all other issues and debates (like the one we are having right now) are a matter of opinion.
You also said two things which comflict with one another. You said, "there is ONE TRUTH" and also, "However for those in other churches, we do not condemn them to hell or even call many of them heretics." BUT, if you are claiming that there is only one truth, namely orthodoxy, that you have codemned all others.
In my opinion, Orthodoxy has the best outlook on the truth (truth being Jesus Christ) which is why I have pride in my heritage and religion of Coptic Orthodoxy. But Orthodoxy is not Truth, it is only a means by which one reaches the truth, it is an opinion about an understanding about the truth. Truth is Jesus Christ.
Please be careful when you use the world, "truth" because all that we are discussing right now is a matter of opinion, not a matter truth. We can only be sure of one thing, that truth is Jesus Christ.
George Mekhaiel
posted on Mar 02, 2008 - 02:47 AM
From geomekhaiel:Mikokiko,
You used the word truth many times, but what really is truth?
Bishop Serapion said that there is only one truth, Jesus Christ, all other issues and debates (like the one we are having right now) are a matter of opinion.
I respect His Grace Bishop Serapion and yes, there is only one truth, but take baptist for example. You MUST be born of the water and spirit to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, as said in the Bible..take a religion that is Christian but doesn't believe in baptism. Can this person be "saved" if they didnt adhere to the truth?
You also said two things which comflict with one another. You said, "there is ONE TRUTH" and also, "However for those in other churches, we do not condemn them to hell or even call many of them heretics." BUT, if you are claiming that there is only one truth, namely orthodoxy, that you have codemned all others.
There is a truth shared by some Churches and that truth is the most WHOLE and COMPLETE truth. Some Churches may belief in the truth but have deviated in teachings slightly or in some cases more than others and therefore are not the WHOLE truth but may be truth in part. Orthodox means "true/right faith" meaning these were the teachings from Jesus Christ handed to his disciples and apostles, then to their disciples, then to the heads of the Church, etc until today. I personally can't judge any person and say whether they will go to heaven because it says, "judge not and you will not be judged" Fine, but the Church can make a statement like that and can say, "Look in order to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven you need to be baptized or you need to practice communion, have nonheretical beliefs". How can someone with the belief that Jesus Christ was non-existant from the beginning and was created by the Father out of need for a Saviour, how can that person be a complete God (be completely divine)..that created being would be a sub-divine being, meaning we are still in need of salvation because only a complete divine Being could free us from the bonds of our enemy.
But Orthodoxy is not Truth, it is only a means by which one reaches the truth, it is an opinion about an understanding about the truth. Truth is Jesus Christ.
So then my question will be: will a person that believes Jesus Christ is the Saviour but doesn't practice baptism, confession, communion, and has heretical beliefs enter into the Kingdom of Heaven?
_________________
andrew
May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be pleasing to you, pleasing to you.
"O God, my God, I will rise up early unto You; for my soul has thirsted for You: to make my flesh blossom for You, in a barren land and a trackless and dry place." (Psalm 62:1)
"My son, give me your heart, And let your eyes observe my ways." (Proverbs 23:26)
"Every meeting with Christ is a prayer of renewal. Every prayer is an experience of faith. Every experience of faith is eternal life." Abouna Matta El-Meskeen
Administrator of copticamerica.org. Ask me for help!
posted on Mar 02, 2008 - 05:13 AM
Andrew,
I can try to address every one of the points that you, if you wish, but I would much rather address just one overall point which will hopefully quell your difference with my point of view.
I feel as though a lot of what you just said puts us as judges over other religions. Yes, some religions, like baptists, do not have the sacraments, but it is not our place to make an assumption towards them not entering into the kingdom of heaven...that even seems a bit mean.
I am in no way as merciful as God but even I, an lowley and wicked human, have enough mercy and compassion in my heart to want Baptists to enter heaven...so, I ask you, how much more mercy must God, our Father, have?
It really isn't our place to judge who will enter heaven and who will not. We just need to be focused on the truth, Jesus Christ.
George Mekhaiel
posted on Mar 02, 2008 - 05:57 PM
Mikokiko,
I think you may have misunderstood Bishop Serapion, or did not go to the logical conclusion. What does it mean that "Jesus Christ" is Truth? Well, when Christ was talking to the samaritan woman, He told her that God is spirit, and His true worshipper must worship Him in spirit and truth. What does that mean? That means we must worship the Father in Christ. How do we do that? We do what Christ tells us to do.
So, the fact that "Christ is Truth" is NOT the only truth. Is Christ God? Yes, that's not an opinion, that's a fact. Was Christ a Nazarene? Yes, that's not an opinion, that's a fact. Was Christ crucified? Yes, that's not an opinion, that's a fact. I think you can see where I'm going with this...
What Bishop Serapion was probably talking about were "I think" issues. In other words, for example. Pope Shenouda said he THINKS that Solomon repented and was saved. That's His Holiness's opinion, we don't know if it's the actual fact or not. When our opinion corresponds to a fact, then we're right, when our opinion doesn't corresponds to a fact, then we're wrong.
Now, arguing from authority is a logical fallacy, unless that authority is infallible. For example, arguing that "Albert Einstein said that 2 + 2 = 4, therefore 2 + 2 = 4." That's a logical fallacy, 2 + 2 equalling 4 has nothing to do with Einstein's abilities. But when it comes to Christ, since He IS Truth, and since He is GOD, when He says something, we can take it as true, know it's true, and talk like it's true.
So, when Jesus Christ says you must be born of water and spirit, He means it, and He is right. Be careful of the danger around "not judging others!" By not judging others, you may be judging Christ. In other words, if you maintain that "someone may enter Heaven if he's not born of water and spirit," then you are contradicting Christ Himself. In the sake of being "nice," you have unintentionally said that Christ was wrong.
I absolutely agree with overgrown's talk about the Church. All you have to do is read Acts 15 (then I Timothy and II Timothy) to see the authority that the Church has. Because the Church is lead by the Holy Spirit (God), then it goes up to infallible status. In Acts 15, in a circumcision dispute, St. James got up and said, "therefore I JUDGE," imagine that - just one apostle had the audacity to judge on a matter. Then all the apostles and elders agreed on what St. James said, and in their letter to the region of the dispute they said, "it is good for the Holy Spirit and us..." Notice how powerful that statement is - the apostles equated the judgment they agreed on to that of the Holy Spirit!
So, will someone not baptized not enter heaven? I would answer it this way: "As far as we know, the answer is no, they will not, BUT if Christ wishes to alter His requirements before judgment day, He's absolutely free to do it." But, we do not lead our lives as if Christ is going to alter His requirements. He may very well not alter His requirements, and He meant that the words He spoke apply on judgment day.
Now, some of you may be thinking, "Is this person suggesting that Christ changes His mind, that can't be." Yes, I agree, Christ DOES NOT change His mind. He doesn't change His mind because "changing your mind" means you made a mistake and have to alter your thoughts. Christ doesn't make mistakes because 1) He's God, He decides what's right and wrong, 2) He's all knowing. He would never "make a mistake" because He would know that He's going to "find the decision wrong" at some point, before He makes it, so He'd never make it.
However, that doesn't mean His requirements can be different at different times. He's not changing His mind, He's just altering His requirements. This is exactly what happened between the Old Testament and the New Testament. When He said His words will never pass away, He didn't mean that we still have to kill goats for the remission of sins, He meant that His words in the Old Testament, which apply in the Old Testament, are always true in the sense that for all times, His words in the Old Testament applied.
For all we know, there's a "third covenant" before judgment day. BUT, that's not the "default" position anymore than a Jew in the Old Testament saying, "Ehh, I'll skip circumcision, because there may be a new covenant that says it's not all that important."
George,
It's not about your mercy contrasted with God's mercy. It's about God's mercy interacting with God's words. When He puts a requirement down, we should take it at face value. I'll repeat what I said above, you are being "nice" at the expense of saying that God didn't mean what He said.
When homegrown or I say that Baptism is necessary, we're not doing it to "judge others," we're doing it because Christ said so. That's like saying I can't tell a murderer what he did was wrong because then "I'm judging him." No, I'm not judging him, I'm judging the act, since Christ told us murder is wrong.
It is Christ who puts His requirements. Our job as Christians is to 1) follow His requirements, 2) make them aware to others.
Looking forward to your responses...
posted on Mar 03, 2008 - 02:10 AM
Tony,
Baptism is a gray area throughout Christianity. In Orthodoxy we firmly believe that one needs baptism in order to attain salvation, but it would be foolish to say that the entire Christian world believes that. The point that I am hinting towards is that baptism is not a thing in which we can easily say if one is not baptised they will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Also, I don't agree with you that judging a person who murders and saying that one who is not baptised will not enter heaven are the same thing. Clearly a person who commited murder is in fault but a person who is not baptised cannot be judged by anyone else except God. It is not Coptic to judge our unbaptised brothers and sisters and codemn them to hell.
We need to be a little bit more careful about the way in which we speak because we really shouldn't put ourselves on the judging throne of God.
George Mekhaiel
posted on Mar 03, 2008 - 02:19 AM
From Truth.Seeker:
So, the fact that "Christ is Truth" is NOT the only truth. Is Christ God? Yes, that's not an opinion, that's a fact. Was Christ a Nazarene? Yes, that's not an opinion, that's a fact. Was Christ crucified? Yes, that's not an opinion, that's a fact. I think you can see where I'm going with this...
Sorry to change the subject of baptism, but i think it is necessary that we distinguish relative truth from Absolute Truth. I think this is what might have caused some confusion in some of your arguments. There are many relative truths but only God himself is Absolute Truth.
GB
Tony
_________________
Tony Moza,
HCOC Distant Member
+ To Protect and Preserve +
HCOC: Sing it! Live it! Love it!
posted on Mar 03, 2008 - 02:25 AM
From geomekhaiel:Tony,
Baptism is a gray area throughout Christianity. In Orthodoxy we firmly believe that one needs baptism in order to attain salvation, but it would be foolish to say that the entire Christian world believes that. The point that I am hinting towards is that baptism is not a thing in which we can easily say if one is not baptised they will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Yes the orthodox do believe that baptism is essential to our salvation, however, we are not saying that if one were not baptised they would not enter the kingdom of heaven. Rather, we say that this sacrament is part of the main path for one who wishes to achieve salvation. If one were to take another turn then it is still possible to achieve salvation but that path will be more difficult. Also, baptism was what God intended for us. I do not want anyone to think that I relied on my own understanding, but it was the understanding of my priest and a servant in my church.
GB
Tony
_________________
Tony Moza,
HCOC Distant Member
+ To Protect and Preserve +
HCOC: Sing it! Live it! Love it!
posted on Mar 03, 2008 - 04:37 AM
Tony Moza,
Thank you for reuttering a brief summary of what we already discussed....no offence, but that's what I feel.
Anyhow, what you wrote, at least when you quoted me, is what I basically believe. It is not our place to codemn anyone. Yes, we believe that baptisim is essential but we shouldn't say that other people are going to hell because they are not baptised.
Regardless, this has gone very far from the original question that was asked.
I have stated basic Orthodox belief, which is not something that I am willing to debate. These are the most basic concepts in our faith.
I am done.
George Mekhaiel
posted on Mar 03, 2008 - 12:24 PM
From AMoussa01:From Truth.Seeker:
So, the fact that "Christ is Truth" is NOT the only truth. Is Christ God? Yes, that's not an opinion, that's a fact. Was Christ a Nazarene? Yes, that's not an opinion, that's a fact. Was Christ crucified? Yes, that's not an opinion, that's a fact. I think you can see where I'm going with this...
Sorry to change the subject of baptism, but i think it is necessary that we distinguish relative truth from Absolute Truth. I think this is what might have caused some confusion in some of your arguments. There are many relative truths but only God himself is Absolute Truth.
GB
Tony
There are no such things as "relative truths." Relative truths are "truths" that are just truths for some people at some point in time. The whole idea of relative truths misses the point that it's not peoples' perceptions that decides what is true.
Anecdote: in the time if Galileo people thought the Earth was flat. Was that a "relative truth?" No, it was a mistaken belief. There's nothing "true" about it.
God is not the only absolute truth. The fact that I am writing this post is an absolute truth, i.e. it's true whether everyone thinks I wrote it or not, and for all time it will be true that I wrote this post.
"Relative truths" is an illogical concept argued by pluralists and post-modernists who try to say "every religion is right because what's true for this person isn't true for that person."
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A. S.
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